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+2011-07-16.txt:00:00:57: -!- itidus20 has joined #esoteric.
+2011-07-16.txt:03:40:55: <itidus20> zzo, sort of like how stage hypnosis is supposed to work eh.
+2011-07-16.txt:03:42:10: <itidus20> i've seen an [obviously staged] video of a guy who hypnotized a woman to think he was invisible and then he would tickle her with a feather and make her look up with confusion
+2011-07-16.txt:03:42:20: <itidus20> on youtube
+2011-07-16.txt:03:43:00: <itidus20> but i am trying to put such bizzare fetishes behind me.
+2011-07-16.txt:03:43:22: <itidus20> it might not have been youtube :-? i forget
+2011-07-16.txt:03:44:17: <itidus20> and there is that book whose name i am not sure of which apparently has this word fnord which the citizens have been conditioned to block out
+2011-07-16.txt:03:44:32: <itidus20> instilling fear in them because it is present in their texts even though they cannot conciously see it
+2011-07-16.txt:03:46:59: <itidus20> as far as I know, the actual experience of such things is a deep form of submission whereby you let someone force you to fake it till you make it
+2011-07-16.txt:03:50:05: <itidus20> it was after a girl in a chatroom started actually doing this to me that I knew I had to leave her.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:07:58: <itidus20> hmm
+2011-07-16.txt:04:08:02: <itidus20> math games..
+2011-07-16.txt:04:08:42: <itidus20> quintopia, single or multiplayer?
+2011-07-16.txt:04:10:52: <itidus20> I have a small stash of ebooks which I more or less just hoard and don't investigate, some of which may actually be relevant.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:14:25: <itidus20> lewis carroll, raymond smullyan, douglas hofstadter
+2011-07-16.txt:04:14:46: <itidus20> i don't know if they entirely reach the topic.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:16:16: <itidus20> i am sure john conway is relevant to the topic but i don't have any ebooks that are really related to him
+2011-07-16.txt:04:20:39: <itidus20> puzzles are more common than actual games
+2011-07-16.txt:04:23:26: <itidus20> depressing wiki comment backs me up "This article is about using mathematics to study the inner-workings of multiplayer games which, on the surface, may not appear mathematical at all. For games that directly involve mathematics in their play, see mathematical puzzle."
+2011-07-16.txt:04:25:12: <itidus20> maybe things aren't so bad
+2011-07-16.txt:04:25:19: <itidus20> anyway here is the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_game
+2011-07-16.txt:04:30:34: <itidus20> As a wannabe game designer it gives me great pain to think about how the only reason games are possible is due to imperfections in the players.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:31:08: <itidus20> relative to perfect play that is
+2011-07-16.txt:04:31:37: <itidus20> but thats probably a naive view i hold too often
+2011-07-16.txt:04:32:49: <itidus20> That is the cynical depressing view that all gaming is to demonstrate some level of deviation from perfect play higher than the opponent.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:33:35: <itidus20> Then again we find that perfect play is a waste of time.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:34:02: <itidus20> And yet it helps motivate us to play if we idealize perfect play.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:34:18: <itidus20> All of this of course is my cynical views which are probably wrong.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:36:17: <itidus20> im full of shit ^_^;
+2011-07-16.txt:04:37:39: <itidus20> i analyze things too much
+2011-07-16.txt:04:38:03: <itidus20> i can think of arguments against my earlier comments but its all just a pile of crap comments
+2011-07-16.txt:04:38:49: <itidus20> humm
+2011-07-16.txt:04:39:03: <itidus20> you know what i havent seen much is coop games
+2011-07-16.txt:04:39:34: <itidus20> i was talking to this guy once about it
+2011-07-16.txt:04:42:26: <itidus20> omg the first result on google is an xkcd page
+2011-07-16.txt:04:43:20: <itidus20> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16990
+2011-07-16.txt:04:43:42: <itidus20> omg quintopia posted on that page
+2011-07-16.txt:04:44:41: <itidus20> yeah, i am skillful googler
+2011-07-16.txt:04:47:13: <itidus20> well i searched on: "3 player game" "help or hinder"
+2011-07-16.txt:04:47:24: <itidus20> didn't work in bing so i proceeded to google and it did
+2011-07-16.txt:04:47:56: <itidus20> yet an MS spokeswoman says "if google didn't exist bing would be good enough"
+2011-07-16.txt:04:49:15: <itidus20> yeah good enough for me to use as fertilizer
+2011-07-16.txt:04:49:47: <itidus20> 3 player eh
+2011-07-16.txt:04:50:00: <itidus20> so.... by having an odd number of players the dynamics become much more complex
+2011-07-16.txt:04:52:08: <itidus20> this very sort of topic is what eventually led me to a chatroom for esoteric programming languages
+2011-07-16.txt:04:53:14: <itidus20> so this page is like anti-3 player games
+2011-07-16.txt:04:53:17: <itidus20> but i am all for it
+2011-07-16.txt:04:54:21: <itidus20> ashbash makes the point
+2011-07-16.txt:04:54:50: <itidus20> chance is fun.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:55:42: <itidus20> oh
+2011-07-16.txt:04:55:50: <itidus20> an idea just came to me,
+2011-07-16.txt:04:56:48: <itidus20> i am a genius of course.. so ideas often come to me
+2011-07-16.txt:04:57:37: <itidus20> ok i am "confident" you have not heard of this game before
+2011-07-16.txt:04:58:01: <itidus20> so.. each player has 2 private 8x8 boards
+2011-07-16.txt:04:58:17: <itidus20> following with me so far?
+2011-07-16.txt:04:58:50: <zzo38> itidus20: OK. So far. But that isn't much.
+2011-07-16.txt:04:59:02: <itidus20> they each have a pair of 8x8 boards that only they can see.. thus a total of four 8x8 boards
+2011-07-16.txt:04:59:34: <itidus20> they also have a bunch of tiles... lets say 128 tiles just to be safe
+2011-07-16.txt:04:59:45: <itidus20> 128 each
+2011-07-16.txt:05:00:25: <itidus20> and uh.. 2 more tiles of a second color.. and 2 more tiles of a third color
+2011-07-16.txt:05:00:50: <itidus20> so..  color 1) 128 tiles, color 2) 2 tiles, color 3) 2 tiles
+2011-07-16.txt:05:00:56: <itidus20> hehe
+2011-07-16.txt:05:01:43: <itidus20> ok now.. they begin by placing color 3 tiles on the boards.. 1 on each board
+2011-07-16.txt:05:01:59: <itidus20> at location.. x = 4, y = 8
+2011-07-16.txt:05:02:37: <itidus20> now, on one of the boards, they place a color 2 tile somewhere
+2011-07-16.txt:05:03:09: <itidus20> so far so good?
+2011-07-16.txt:05:03:48: <itidus20> oh.. its allowed anywhere except the first tile position
+2011-07-16.txt:05:04:10: <itidus20> for now.. that rule might turn out to need altering
+2011-07-16.txt:05:04:52: <itidus20> ok.. next.. you build a maze with the color 1 tiles leading to the color 2 tile
+2011-07-16.txt:05:05:14: <itidus20> from the color 3 tile to the color 2 tile
+2011-07-16.txt:05:06:50: <itidus20> diagonal moves are not possible, but the maze has to be a solid object in the way that a tetris piece is a solid object
+2011-07-16.txt:05:07:00: <itidus20> uhh sort of
+2011-07-16.txt:05:07:07: <itidus20> maybe it can have gaps
+2011-07-16.txt:05:07:14: <itidus20> but uhhh
+2011-07-16.txt:05:07:17: <itidus20> hummm blah
+2011-07-16.txt:05:07:21: <itidus20> yeah anyway moving along
+2011-07-16.txt:05:07:32: <itidus20> well im not sure.. this part is tricky to formalize in words
+2011-07-16.txt:05:08:11: <itidus20> so anyway... what happens is.. in any order.. doesn't matter.. each turn.. both players are told which directions have walls
+2011-07-16.txt:05:08:21: <itidus20> so it might be like "east and west have walls"
+2011-07-16.txt:05:08:51: <quintopia> itidus20: the easiest way to say what i think you are trying to say is "no 2x2 region can contain no color 1 tiles"
+2011-07-16.txt:05:09:08: <itidus20> and then the player tells the other player which direction he makes his move
+2011-07-16.txt:05:09:33: <itidus20> and both players update their boards.. and its a race to reach the end of the maze
+2011-07-16.txt:05:10:04: <itidus20> yup
+2011-07-16.txt:05:10:14: <itidus20> its not a bad idea right?
+2011-07-16.txt:05:12:21: <itidus20> oh i am empty of ideas now. just had to spill that one
+2011-07-16.txt:05:15:48: <itidus20> it is by jumping into such random convos that such ideas come to me
+2011-07-16.txt:05:15:51: <itidus20> i never get them on my own
+2011-07-16.txt:05:17:04: <itidus20> zzo, yeah i like to consider every possible use of the chessboard other than to play chess :-?
+2011-07-16.txt:05:18:37: <zzo38> itidus20: Yes you can make other games using the same or similar board. Some game similar to chess includes Xiangqi, Shogi, played with their own board, but it is still like chess, you still take turn moving 1 piece each, you attack opponent's king and can win, etc.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:18:48: <itidus20> i actually created a wild image with my wacom tablet the other day to show my desire to stretch the game of chess
+2011-07-16.txt:05:22:11: <itidus20> I liked the chess variant shown on the big bang theory
+2011-07-16.txt:05:22:53: <itidus20> http://oi55.tinypic.com/15n2fro.jpg
+2011-07-16.txt:05:24:34: <itidus20> damn
+2011-07-16.txt:05:26:01: <itidus20> i dont like chess because i have no clue how to play.. and that being the best is ridiculously difficult
+2011-07-16.txt:05:26:37: <itidus20> and a game like chess to me is the perfect thing to exploit into other games
+2011-07-16.txt:05:29:09: <itidus20> the maze thing is probably not as good in practice as it sounds.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:29:33: <zzo38> itidus20: I believe you.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:29:51: <itidus20> but the idea is fun
+2011-07-16.txt:05:32:10: <itidus20> you're right... its basically battleships except reduced down to 1 small ship
+2011-07-16.txt:05:33:23: <itidus20> no i don't.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:33:42: <quintopia> itidus20: i am getting another idea for a maze game
+2011-07-16.txt:05:35:57: <itidus20> quintopia: I once had an idea about generating a maze by dice rolls
+2011-07-16.txt:05:36:57: <quintopia> itidus20: i want to make a cross between pacman and fox-and-geese, where the geese player is the only one who knows the maze and the positions of everything.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:38:01: <itidus20> zzo, i am fascinated by some dragonball z emulated roms based on card games
+2011-07-16.txt:05:38:22: <itidus20> ah fox and geese.. i have a book around with a lot of games described
+2011-07-16.txt:05:39:20: <itidus20> theres 1 special book about chess history which i have been unable to locate on the internet
+2011-07-16.txt:05:40:18: <itidus20> ill check my browser history
+2011-07-16.txt:05:41:13: <itidus20> A History Of Chess by some H.J.R. Murray
+2011-07-16.txt:05:42:43: <NihilistDandy> itidus20: Surprisingly, I can't find it either. I thought I had a near comprehensive set of books on chess.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:42:54: <itidus20> its very special that one
+2011-07-16.txt:05:43:01: <itidus20> will be hard to find
+2011-07-16.txt:05:43:52: <itidus20> I learned about it when I started to want to know about the very origins of chess
+2011-07-16.txt:05:47:27: <itidus20> theres something so compelling about chess.. but yet for me there is a certain boredom that i imagine with it
+2011-07-16.txt:05:49:52: <zzo38> itidus20: I think I have also played some kind of card game Dragonball Z on NES, although I am unsure of the rule. Each card two numbers, one above is dots tell you how many times to move, the one below I am not sure what it means.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:50:20: <itidus20> zzo38: yeah.. thats exactly the kind of game i mean. they're fun to watch
+2011-07-16.txt:05:50:36: <itidus20> i have no clue what goes on though
+2011-07-16.txt:05:52:48: <itidus20> oh well i think theres some translations anyway
+2011-07-16.txt:05:52:56: <itidus20> but even still i would have no idea
+2011-07-16.txt:05:54:27: <itidus20> so, zzo, did you learn much about chess variants?
+2011-07-16.txt:05:55:22: <itidus20> i actually basically independantly discovered the theory of chess variants
+2011-07-16.txt:05:55:45: <itidus20> and, at the end i googled it and found out with dismay that what i had discovered was nothing new at all
+2011-07-16.txt:05:56:56: <itidus20> perhaps theory is the wrong word.. but i will explain
+2011-07-16.txt:05:56:59: <zzo38> itidus20:  http://chessvariants.org/
+2011-07-16.txt:05:57:27: <itidus20> oh, well, by discovering it myself i had insight into exactly what chess variants are.
+2011-07-16.txt:05:58:07: <itidus20> they are taking the properties of the individual pieces and forming an abstract class which you might call "chesspiece"
+2011-07-16.txt:05:58:21: <itidus20> and.. deriving from that class.. new pieces
+2011-07-16.txt:05:58:42: <itidus20> this general process is exceedingly powerful
+2011-07-16.txt:06:04:55: <itidus20> so naturally most chess moves resolve into vectors. either specific lengths or unlimited
+2011-07-16.txt:06:05:40: <itidus20> now .. this creates a problem if you imagine a chessboard of say 1000x1000 ... do you still want some pieces crossing it in one go -- that is -- are unlimited movement vectors implied on boards > 8x8
+2011-07-16.txt:06:05:57: <itidus20> its all very fun for a rainy day
+2011-07-16.txt:06:07:40: <itidus20> of course one way around that would be to divide the board up into districts
+2011-07-16.txt:06:07:54: <itidus20> where a piece has to stop at the edge
+2011-07-16.txt:06:08:00: <itidus20> sort of
+2011-07-16.txt:06:10:37: <itidus20> the trouble starts when you start trying to abstract moves like en passant and castling
+2011-07-16.txt:06:11:10: <itidus20> then it feels like a scripting language would be useful
+2011-07-16.txt:06:11:21: <itidus20> in the definition of the pieces
+2011-07-16.txt:06:14:48: <itidus20> back
+2011-07-16.txt:06:14:57: <itidus20> dandy: variant pieces
+2011-07-16.txt:06:15:12: <itidus20> well, i don't know. perhaps the conversation has multi-threaded too
+2011-07-16.txt:06:15:22: <itidus20> which is nice
+2011-07-16.txt:06:16:57: <itidus20> So I decided when I was thinking about chess variants that the minimal conditions I would find acceptable is a system which could describe all the rules of chess
+2011-07-16.txt:06:17:27: <itidus20> including castling and pawns moving 2 spaces on their first go, and queening, and en passant etc
+2011-07-16.txt:06:18:46: <itidus20> I did try for a little while.  I think as I became aware of the existence of professionals who had already done a lot of it, I lost interest.
+2011-07-16.txt:06:18:52: <itidus20> both :D
+2011-07-16.txt:06:19:45: <itidus20> I had plans on making a program to do it but it started to make me sweat so by then i had thrown in towel
+2011-07-16.txt:06:20:29: <itidus20> I didn't have any exciting ideas anyway
+2011-07-16.txt:06:20:49: <itidus20> I simply realized that chesspieces could be highly generalized.
+2011-07-16.txt:06:21:48: <itidus20> Also, there is the draw I feel towards making a realtime chess
+2011-07-16.txt:06:22:00: <itidus20> I have seen a youtube video of kungfu chess.
+2011-07-16.txt:06:25:51: <itidus20> I feel a small joy reading "I would rather take the real-time chess concept as far as it can go."
+2011-07-16.txt:06:26:52: <itidus20> but yeah.. sumo volleyball sounds like the kind of nonsense I would be looking to create
+2011-07-16.txt:06:31:38: <itidus20> well, i decided to define a boolean named virgin for whether or not a piece has moved yet :D
+2011-07-16.txt:06:33:08: <itidus20> i also abstracted the role of the king into an idea of like a squad leader
+2011-07-16.txt:06:35:08: <itidus20> so uh.. you could have a chess army consisting of multiple squads..
+2011-07-16.txt:06:35:15: <itidus20> and if you take down the leader, the whole squad falls
+2011-07-16.txt:06:35:58: <itidus20> yeah, i am full of ideas on this kind of thing.. it provides me some kind of perverse pleasure
+2011-07-16.txt:06:39:06: <itidus20> YChat works.
+2011-07-16.txt:06:39:11: <itidus20> I dunno how it compares
+2011-07-16.txt:06:40:13: <itidus20> hmm.. seems they are related
+2011-07-16.txt:06:40:41: <itidus20> looking on the about box one of the devs of this ychat has an email address silverex@silverex.org
+2011-07-16.txt:06:41:18: <Sgeo_> itidus20, so basically, you're using Silverex, which just puts YChat as the name of the program
+2011-07-16.txt:06:41:33: <itidus20> im using some version of it
+2011-07-16.txt:06:41:40: <itidus20> i dont know
+2011-07-16.txt:06:42:05: <itidus20> its listed as: X Chat 2 in the start menu
+2011-07-16.txt:06:42:46: <itidus20> weird
+2011-07-16.txt:08:12:22: <itidus20> whats QI?
+2011-07-16.txt:08:12:41: <itidus20> is it IQ backwards?
+2011-07-16.txt:08:13:06: <itidus20> ah yes
+2011-07-16.txt:08:14:14: <itidus20> "last night"
+2011-07-16.txt:08:14:16: <itidus20> hehehehe
+2011-07-16.txt:08:15:17: <itidus20> I doubt that there is a QI esolang though.
+2011-07-16.txt:08:15:51: <itidus20> although.. much to my surprise, a term i thought up "hashashins weed" has already been used
+2011-07-16.txt:12:18:45: -!- itidus20 has quit (*.net *.split).
+2011-07-16.txt:12:19:58: -!- itidus20 has joined #esoteric.
+2011-07-16.txt:18:35:15: <itidus20> yay darkest hours are always the most thrilling
+2011-07-16.txt:18:46:30: <itidus20> hagb4rd, is your point that the first 3d shooters are more awesome than the ones which followed?
+2011-07-16.txt:18:48:47: <itidus20> hagb4rd: I have become aware in my thoughts that software developers tend to take credit for improvements caused by hardware
+2011-07-16.txt:18:49:58: <itidus20> hagb4rd: are you happy with 6fps? im a little confused where you actually stand on this
+2011-07-16.txt:18:51:09: <itidus20> i am amazed atari had a fps
+2011-07-16.txt:19:07:03: <itidus20> hagb4rd: I am glad you showed these fps videos. Anyway I think that the fps genre is losing creativity.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:19:19: <itidus20> hag: I had some ideas about planets in 2d.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:19:56: <itidus20> The first idea I had is that if you walk far enough to the left or right in 2d you can come up on the other side
+2011-07-16.txt:19:20:12: <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, ...
+2011-07-16.txt:19:20:51: <oklofok> itidus20: you mean you came up with the idea of somehow making R^2 into a torus?
+2011-07-16.txt:19:21:33: <itidus20> i am happy to admit i am full of crap and can laugh at myself about it
+2011-07-16.txt:19:22:19: <itidus20> oklofok: when I was thinking about it what I really wanted to achieve is to do it without a sense of cheating the player
+2011-07-16.txt:19:23:45: <itidus20> R^2 is already over my head, but I can still carry on
+2011-07-16.txt:19:24:58: <itidus20> i have wiki at my side
+2011-07-16.txt:19:25:52: <itidus20> but so this wasn't entirely enough for me. there was more. i wanted to allow the player to "dig through the planet"
+2011-07-16.txt:19:26:33: <itidus20> humm i will make a quick paint pic
+2011-07-16.txt:19:30:01: <itidus20> http://oi51.tinypic.com/nl4u1v.jpg
+2011-07-16.txt:19:30:45: <itidus20> in this pic you can sort of see the idea of "digging" through but the first problem arises. it looks very odd if the player does not turn his head around as he falls
+2011-07-16.txt:19:31:36: <itidus20> so i had this idea that the center of the planet could be another torus , to borrow your word
+2011-07-16.txt:19:32:06: <itidus20> no wait, maybe that wasn't the idea
+2011-07-16.txt:19:32:34: <itidus20> anyway.. i thought.. when you reach the center of the planet while falling through, you should reach a dark screen where your path follows a U shape
+2011-07-16.txt:19:32:53: <itidus20> and you start falling upwards without actually turning upside down
+2011-07-16.txt:19:34:03: <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, suggest you read http://everything2.com/title/Using+Asteroids+to+explain+the+topological+classification+of+2-manifolds
+2011-07-16.txt:19:34:22: <itidus20> ok
+2011-07-16.txt:19:37:32: <itidus20> (still reading the article, even while I type this) my more general theorum is that in practice the earth looks flat. It never actually looks like a sphere to anyone standing on it. So it should never have to look round in a video game.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:38:21: <oerjan> itidus20: what about on mountains near the ocean?
+2011-07-16.txt:19:38:27: <Sgeo> itidus20, what if someon finds a way to lift off into seep space in the game?
+2011-07-16.txt:19:38:54: <itidus20> ya ur rite
+2011-07-16.txt:19:39:01: <itidus20> but..
+2011-07-16.txt:19:39:04: <oklofok> itidus20: you want a surface like that of earth's, but infinitely deep?
+2011-07-16.txt:19:39:10: <itidus20> maybe its possible to do both
+2011-07-16.txt:19:39:49: <itidus20> well first I imagined a giant circle. and I thought, how big does the circle have to be so that it looks flat
+2011-07-16.txt:19:40:14: <Sgeo> itidus20, it wouldn't be an absolute size, but a size relative to the observer
+2011-07-16.txt:19:40:33: <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> (still reading the article, even while I type this) my more general theorum is that in practice the earth looks flat. It never actually looks like a sphere to anyone standing on it. So it should never have to look round in a video game.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:42:05: <itidus20> oklofok, well i decided that as you reach the center you reach a black background and your sprite follows a U path and when it goes up again it is falling upwards to some other point. so i guess that is infinite depth.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:42:32: <oklofok> itidus20: i think it's better to prevent reaching the middle altogether
+2011-07-16.txt:19:44:00: <itidus20> I am full of crap. I am a whole magnitude below mathematically. ^_^
+2011-07-16.txt:19:44:11: <itidus20> But I think up things from left field.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:45:39: <itidus20> So I was trying to squiash all this into a tile based side scroller (as an idea) which cannot rotate.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:50:18: <itidus20> ok i guess theres room for compromise
+2011-07-16.txt:19:51:15: <itidus20> so what do you do.. make the character change size? :D :D
+2011-07-16.txt:19:51:53: <itidus20> perhaps as he falls deeper he scales up
+2011-07-16.txt:19:52:31: <itidus20> like a map projection, when a man goes to iceland
+2011-07-16.txt:19:52:36: <itidus20> his body probably grows larger
+2011-07-16.txt:19:52:56: <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, what
+2011-07-16.txt:19:53:12: <itidus20> yeah. greenland/iceland is gigantic on most map projections
+2011-07-16.txt:19:53:29: <oklofok> "<itidus20> perhaps as he falls deeper he scales up" well more like gets smaller
+2011-07-16.txt:19:53:51: <itidus20> phantom, it has occured to me that the missing link could be that the character could actually change size to make it all work
+2011-07-16.txt:19:54:04: <itidus20> thanks to listening to this conversation
+2011-07-16.txt:19:55:00: <itidus20> ok hagb4rd: like suppose uh.. Zelda.. was played on a typical map projection.
+2011-07-16.txt:19:55:19: <itidus20> now when he is standing on iceland his body will be stretched :D
+2011-07-16.txt:19:56:17: <oklofok> itidus20: i was thinking maybe you could have a metric such that on every level of depth inside earth, you have a surface with the same circumference as earth, but you have infinitely many concentric balls "on top" of each other
+2011-07-16.txt:19:57:08: <itidus20> oklofok, i really did actually commit some of this to paper months ago.. but i am clueless on topology
+2011-07-16.txt:19:57:24: <itidus20> so now it comes to life
+2011-07-16.txt:19:58:42: <itidus20> oklofok: well the deeper paradox of falling through earth is that your up vector has to change at some point
+2011-07-16.txt:19:58:56: <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh i see itidus20 was already bringing up similar ideas.  btw this reminds me of a valerian comic...
+2011-07-16.txt:19:59:04: <oklofok> itidus20: unless you just fall infinitely?
+2011-07-16.txt:19:59:15: <itidus20> so I decided let him fall in  U shape
+2011-07-16.txt:20:00:36: <itidus20> because if i didnt say let him fall in a U shape then either the map flips upside down or the character flips upside down and it would look awkward
+2011-07-16.txt:20:00:55: <itidus20> something would have to flip
+2011-07-16.txt:20:01:09: <itidus20> i also realize that you couldn't actually fall through.. gravity would pin you in the center
+2011-07-16.txt:20:01:57: <itidus20> the idea of falling through is really just to ensure that the planet is real
+2011-07-16.txt:20:02:37: <itidus20> anyone who quotes that evil man behind general semantics who says the map is not the territory is to be slain >:)
+2011-07-16.txt:20:03:08: <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> i also realize that you couldn't actually fall through.. gravity would pin you in the center
+2011-07-16.txt:20:04:27: <itidus20> phantom, so uhh.. i don't think any player has any actual reason to dig in a planet. but i think that the idea forces the game to cope with that possibility
+2011-07-16.txt:20:04:52: <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, the gravity at a planet's core is 0.
+2011-07-16.txt:20:05:06: <itidus20> ahh
+2011-07-16.txt:20:05:28: <itidus20> does it decrease as you approach the center?
+2011-07-16.txt:20:05:45: <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, yes.
+2011-07-16.txt:20:06:10: <oerjan> itidus20: basically for a perfectly spherical body, the gravity at a point inside is given by only the part of the body that is further inside from you
+2011-07-16.txt:20:06:49: <itidus20> on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other
+2011-07-16.txt:20:07:26: <oklofok> "<itidus20> on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other" <<< can i steal this idea and try to do something cool with it next week?
+2011-07-16.txt:20:08:08: <itidus20> all of my ideas are free to do whatever you like with as long as i get to use them myself
+2011-07-16.txt:20:08:14: <itidus20> lol
+2011-07-16.txt:20:08:43: <itidus20> as in, i don't want to get cut off from my own ideas
+2011-07-16.txt:20:09:25: <itidus20> so a tetris piece would have a mass of 4
+2011-07-16.txt:20:10:06: <itidus20> but if 2 tetris pieces bumped together, they would become one object with a mass of 8
+2011-07-16.txt:20:11:01: <itidus20> for me, diagonal connections in CA's (i love the acronyms you guy use so casually) is good enough to share mass
+2011-07-16.txt:20:12:09: <oklofok> itidus20: as i love telling people, i get payed to play with ca all day so acronymizing it gets pretty casual
+2011-07-16.txt:20:12:44: <itidus20> oklofok: ok heres another idea i had (i was on a roll that day)
+2011-07-16.txt:20:13:12: <itidus20> a chess game CA where the piece type is determined by the pieces around it
+2011-07-16.txt:20:14:00: <itidus20> well it would be just a CA... but the pieces would exist as uhh
+2011-07-16.txt:20:14:03: <oklofok> itidus20: huh?
+2011-07-16.txt:20:14:13: <itidus20> the pieces would be implied by the rules of the CA I guess..
+2011-07-16.txt:20:14:41: <itidus20> so say you had a cell on its own.. that could be a pawn
+2011-07-16.txt:20:14:47: <itidus20> as an example
+2011-07-16.txt:20:15:13: <oklofok> itidus20: chess pieces are not really mathematically interesting
+2011-07-16.txt:20:15:19: <itidus20> i actually drew up some ideas of possible rules for which pieces are which
+2011-07-16.txt:20:16:05: <itidus20> oh.. well.. ok.. so you start with a regular game of life
+2011-07-16.txt:20:16:12: <itidus20> and.. in between turns
+2011-07-16.txt:20:16:25: <itidus20> generations?
+2011-07-16.txt:20:16:56: <itidus20> ok lets say its not quite game of life.. lets say you have 2 teams .. so trinary state
+2011-07-16.txt:20:17:08: <itidus20> because its chess
+2011-07-16.txt:20:17:21: <itidus20> or uhh
+2011-07-16.txt:20:17:24: <itidus20> uhhhmmm
+2011-07-16.txt:20:17:34: <itidus20> i never really thought about it that way
+2011-07-16.txt:20:18:19: <itidus20> well.. you would have a dead cell, a black cell, and a white cell
+2011-07-16.txt:20:19:20: <itidus20> so at the end of a generation the player can select 1 cell.. whose type is determined by the cells around it
+2011-07-16.txt:20:19:35: <itidus20> and move it
+2011-07-16.txt:20:20:01: <itidus20> and in all likelihood it is now a new kind of piece having moved
+2011-07-16.txt:20:20:24: <itidus20> and lets say you can capture an enemy cell by moving onto it
+2011-07-16.txt:20:20:49: <itidus20> i try
+2011-07-16.txt:20:20:51: <itidus20> hehe
+2011-07-16.txt:20:21:32: <itidus20> i was discussing that very question in here last night about how far can a chesspiece move
+2011-07-16.txt:20:22:10: <itidus20> ok finite ca
+2011-07-16.txt:20:22:46: <itidus20> so the actual pieces are represented as rules of neighborhoods
+2011-07-16.txt:20:23:17: <itidus20> and the fun of the design is determining which neighborhoods map to which pieces
+2011-07-16.txt:20:23:49: <itidus20> I came up with a set but I never did anything with this idea
+2011-07-16.txt:20:26:28: <itidus20> The idea could also be extended into fairy chess.
+2011-07-16.txt:20:28:13: <itidus20> sorry taneb
+2011-07-16.txt:20:28:23: <itidus20> i will join your convo
+2011-07-16.txt:20:38:10: <itidus20> working on CAs it must be tough to resist the topic i came up with.
+2011-07-16.txt:20:40:18: <itidus20> so, on looking at reduceron page, I feel my ineptitude. what's the best language to learn functional programming concepts?
+2011-07-16.txt:20:41:30: <itidus20> thanks
+2011-07-16.txt:20:41:53: <itidus20> i have tried reading up on lambda calc once but i never quite got it
+2011-07-16.txt:20:42:12: <itidus20> ^ http://byob.berkeley.edu/
+2011-07-16.txt:20:42:30: <itidus20> oh nice it's visual programming
+2011-07-16.txt:20:42:59: <itidus20> I won't fuck the room again by my ideas about visual programming.
+2011-07-16.txt:20:43:07: <itidus20> ill just quiet down
+2011-07-16.txt:20:44:10: <itidus20> because if you think my ideas about torus worlds, gravity CAs, chess CAs make a mess. then visual programming is just as bad
+2011-07-16.txt:20:44:48: <itidus20> i'll save it for another day
+2011-07-16.txt:20:49:14: <itidus20> I smash them together like a particle collider
+2011-07-16.txt:20:49:52: <itidus20> =))
+2011-07-16.txt:20:50:29: <itidus20> Basically I see things as existing in academic space and entertainment space.
+2011-07-16.txt:20:51:14: <itidus20> I take inspiration from people like lewis carroll
+2011-07-16.txt:20:51:52: <itidus20> hmm...
+[too many lines; stopping]