Mercurial > repo
annotate paste/paste.31451 @ 152:e512789a4d53
<elliott> rm lambdabotloop
author | HackBot |
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date | Mon, 02 Apr 2012 19:18:45 +0000 |
parents | 18cae3383e57 |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:44:38: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:53:59: <elliott_> hi ais523 |
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3 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:54:03: <ais523> hi elliott_ |
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4 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:54:09: <ais523> spammer got past the CAPTCHA |
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5 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:54:13: <ais523> could you check to make sure it's a human? |
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6 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:54:25: <ais523> (I indef-blocked the account, auto-blocked the IP, deleted the page and blacklisted the domain) |
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7 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:55:43: <ais523> yep |
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8 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:55:47: <ais523> I just mean I didn't turn it off |
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9 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:56:42: <elliott_> ais523: looks human to me, except this one is using something that looks like IE7, rather than IE8 |
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10 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:56:47: <ais523> fair enoguh |
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11 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:56:49: <ais523> (enough |
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12 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:56:51: <ais523> *enough |
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13 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:56:56: <ais523> the IP traces to a large Indian ISP |
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14 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:58:27: <elliott_> ais523: btw, do you know how I could make "Prevent user from sending e-mail" the default? |
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15 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:09:58:53: <ais523> I don't know, although it wouldn't surprise me i there was a config setting somewhere |
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16 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:10:42:34: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). |
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17 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:10:59:26: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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18 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:11:01:27: <elliott_> hi ais523 |
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19 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:11:04:09: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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20 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:11:05:03: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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21 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:11:05:11: <elliott_> hi ais523 |
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22 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:11:05:20: <ais523> hi |
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23 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:11:05:32: <ais523> yay, I actually managed to ping myself before the connection dropped this time :) |
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24 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:39:00: <ais523> In December 2009, Paul Gogarty apologised in advance for using "unparliamentary language" prior to shouting "fuck you!" at an opposition chief whip.[7] This phrase was not one of those listed explicitly as inappropriate, prompting calls for a review.[9] |
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25 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:39:29: <ais523> so was the review about whether "fuck you!" is inappropriate, or about whether it's correct to apologise for using phrases not on the inappropriate phrases list? |
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26 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:44:29: <elliott_> ais523: hey, when do you think we should take down the sitenotice? |
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27 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:44:41: <ais523> Vorpal's seen it now, so so has everyone else |
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28 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:44:44: <ais523> so may as well take it down |
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29 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:44:58: <ais523> his reaction in channel was hilarious |
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30 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:45:05: <ais523> I think it was yesterday or the day before |
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31 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:46:43: <ais523> elliott_: even if you were clear, I don't think Vorpal would believe you |
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32 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:46:53: <ais523> or at least, even if he did, he'd pretend not to for humour value |
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33 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:46:56: <elliott_> ais523: That was rather below my threshold for hilarious. :( |
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34 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:47:01: <ais523> sorry |
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35 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:47:07: <ais523> I thought the discussion about a coup was funny |
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36 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:47:13: <ais523> or just the first couple of lines |
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37 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:47:21: <ais523> new Mediawiki, hmm and elliott's behind it? |
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38 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:50:00: <ais523> hmm, so it seems that Visual C++ version 11 doesn't support Windows XP in the binaries it produces |
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39 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:50:23: <elliott_> ais523: presumably just "by default" |
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40 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:50:26: <ais523> yep, that's been around for a while |
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41 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:50:42: <ais523> elliott_: it doesn't ship with a libc that runs on windows XP |
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42 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:50:49: <ais523> so you'd need to find one from somewhere |
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43 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:51:12: <ais523> well, indeed |
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44 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:51:19: <ais523> (the libc gets statically linked on Windows, usually, it seems) |
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45 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:52:40: <ais523> what does SFINAE mean? trying to read about C++ is tricky because of all the acronyms |
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46 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:52:50: <ais523> (I can ask this safely as I don't pretend to understand more than a smallish subset of C++) |
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47 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:53:06: <ais523> ah, OK |
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48 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:53:19: <ais523> I'm a little surprised it's major enough to have a Wikipedia article about it… |
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49 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:54:41: <ais523> I'd have tried Wikipedia first if I expected the article to exist |
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50 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:54:43: <ais523> but I didn't |
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51 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:54:52: <ais523> and wow, the concept itself is beautifully ridiculous :) |
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52 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:56:14: <ais523> what does 1.19 have that you want? |
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53 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:12:59:48: <elliott_> ais523: conjecture: Wikipedia's relicensing to CC failed, because not everybody could edit Wikipedia at the time |
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54 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:00:13: <ais523> I don't see why that would be relevant |
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55 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:00:26: <ais523> I believe they could relicense the content without anyone's permission but the FSF if they really wanted to |
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56 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:00:32: <ais523> but they decided to seek permission anyway |
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57 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:00:58: <ais523> oh, I see |
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58 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:01:06: <ais523> technicalities don't apply in legal documents, though |
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59 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:01:33: <ais523> I also like the definition of "incorporate", there |
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60 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:01:40: <ais523> because it's so different from the normal legal meaning |
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61 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:01:54: <ais523> elliott_: I think I got my reminders before you did |
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62 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:02:01: <ais523> and I already happy-thatted yesterday for the Australian version |
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63 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:02:31: * ais523 notes that it's possible to verb even relative pronouns |
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64 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:03:31: <ais523> oh, you check email actively? |
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65 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:03:46: <ais523> I just leave Evolution backgrounded and look at it when the new-messages popup comes up |
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66 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:03:52: <ais523> that's what I meant by actively |
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67 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:03:58: <ais523> you make a decision to check it |
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68 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:04:04: <ais523> rather than checking it in the background, so to speak |
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69 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:05:25: <ais523> err, what? Evolution was installed on here by default |
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70 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:05:39: <ais523> admittedly, it needed to be configured to contact all three of my email addresses |
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71 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:05:56: <ais523> and I really don't get why people use web browsers to access all sorts of services they aren't designed for |
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72 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:06:03: <ais523> gmail's interface is hideous compared to Evolutions |
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73 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:06:07: <ais523> *Evolution's |
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74 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:06:14: <ais523> (and yes, I have used gmail, although I didn't create the account) |
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75 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:09:34: <ais523> and I'm not convinced it's possible to build a good interface inside the browser, because the browser is doing its own thing that's optimised for browsing |
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76 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:09:41: <ais523> not to mention, GMail doesn't work offline |
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77 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:09:53: <ais523> (I think they were trying to come up with some convoluted scheme to fix that, but still…) |
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78 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:12:36: <elliott_> <ais523> err, what? Evolution was installed on here by default |
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79 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:12:44: <elliott_> <ais523> and I really don't get why people use web browsers to access all sorts of services they aren't designed for |
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80 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:12:54: <ais523> it is, it notifies by default if you leave it running |
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81 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:13:05: <elliott_> ais523: yes, but it also connects via IMAP and creates rubbish IMAP folders and junk |
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82 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:13:17: <ais523> and evolution-alarm-notifier (the calendar notifier) runs even if Evolution isn't running, if the calendar is non-empty |
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83 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:13:30: <ais523> well I don't have this problem because I'm not using gmail |
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84 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:13:50: <elliott_> ais523: yes, you don't; I do |
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85 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:14:05: <ais523> hmm, I tend to turn threading off in things that support turning it off |
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86 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:14:09: <ais523> I turned it off in my newsreader, for instance |
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87 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:14:19: <ais523> so that I don't have to click round between multiple threads to find all the messages that have arrived recently |
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88 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:02: <ais523> so here's one for you: suppose you need to mark all the messages in your inbox with a particular string in their subject line as unread |
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89 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:07: <ais523> how do you do that in gmail? |
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90 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:17: <ais523> (note: actual real-world problem I had a while ago) |
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91 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:23: <ais523> elliott_: that's what quoting's for, right? |
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92 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:43: <elliott_> ais523: search for the string, click check box in the top-left, click the second sentence link in "All 20 conversations on this page are selected. Select all conversations that match this search", more -> mark as unread |
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93 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:46: <ais523> fizzie: right, it does, but they've improved the interface by exposing that option right when you're configuring the account |
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94 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:54: <elliott_> ais523: you can also use a filter to apply it to all incoming mail (and then apply that filter retroactively) |
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95 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:15:55: <ais523> elliott_: some messages contain the string not in the subject line |
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96 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:16:00: <ais523> and those ones shouldn't be marked as unread |
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97 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:16:11: <elliott_> ais523: subject:foo |
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98 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:16:19: <ais523> also, this is one-off so filters aren't helpful, and putting the string in the search box also finds messages that don't contain the exact string, but an approximation |
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99 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:16:34: <ais523> well, OK |
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100 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:16:57: <ais523> it's still a lot more work than setting the search style to "subject" then typing in the string to search on |
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101 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:17:00: <fizzie> ais523: That's Tfoo\n;wN in mutt. |
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102 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:17:09: <elliott_> ais523: not really, I could have used keyboard shortcuts |
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103 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:24:32: <elliott_> ais523: anyway, a web browser has what I would consider significant advantages over a traditional desktop application as far as email goes, IMO |
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104 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:24:45: <elliott_> ais523: in that it's designed around portrait-scale, reflowable text |
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105 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:25:02: <elliott_> ais523: with "light" navigation as part of the content rather than something omnipresent |
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106 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:25:14: <ais523> elliott_: hmm… reflowable text has to be a solved problem by now |
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107 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:25:35: <ais523> the thing is, people expect emails to have significant line breaks, because they usually do |
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108 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:25:45: <elliott_> ais523: well, yes, I'm just saying that as far as a fixed layout of widgets vs. a "document" display of things goes, the latter seems better for email to me |
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109 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:25:45: <ais523> so I think many clients choose not to reflow emails |
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110 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:01: <elliott_> ais523: oh, that's an incidental thing, but yes |
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111 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:08: <ais523> well, it makes sense to use an HTML renderer to display emails |
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112 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:11: <ais523> especially HTML emails |
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113 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:13: <elliott_> ais523: it's more the "type" of document I'm talking about |
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114 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:21: <ais523> but you do that in the bit of the client that displays the email itself, not the whole thing |
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115 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:28: <elliott_> ais523: I wasn't talking about rendering engine |
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116 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:43: <ais523> what were you talking about? |
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117 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:26:53: <elliott_> ais523: well... what I said |
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118 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:27:04: <ais523> well, you mentioned a display |
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119 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:27:20: <ais523> as in, which bit of a browser are you saying is useful here? the rendering engine? something else? |
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120 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:27:38: <ais523> clearly it's only a subset of the browser that matters, as, say, an FTP client is irrelevant |
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121 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:28:41: <ais523> and I'm saying that that argument only applies to the bit of the client that shows the email itself |
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122 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:28:49: <ais523> which is typically not done with a GUI toolkit, but with an HTML renderer |
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123 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:29:11: <ais523> things like a list of messages? |
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124 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:29:16: <ais523> and a list of accounts? |
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125 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:29:32: <ais523> I have my reply button on a toolbar, so I can memorize its location |
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126 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:29:35: <elliott_> ais523: yes, web browsers are also very good at lists of things, because what's each item in the list of messages? |
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127 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:29:41: <ais523> (I dislike the Thunderbird style at associating it with a message) |
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128 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:29:50: <ais523> elliott_: err, no, web browsers are not good at lists of things |
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129 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:30:09: <ais523> they're good at links, but links are basically "reacting to clicks", and everything can do that trivially |
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130 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:30:22: <ais523> and actually, a list of emails /isn't/ a list of links |
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131 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:30:28: <ais523> because you can do things like select then |
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132 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:30:29: <ais523> *them |
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133 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:35:03: <ais523> the talk page is pretty funny too |
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134 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:36:44: <ais523> do celebrities have more or fewer friends on average than people as a whole? |
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135 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:41:45: <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase |
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136 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:42:05: <Vorpal> ais523, technically I believe Skyrim is an indie game though. Heh. |
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137 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:42:45: <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage |
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138 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:42:58: <ais523> and the common-usage definition is also entirely reasonable and fits the meaning of its individual words |
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139 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:43:01: <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game? |
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140 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:43:18: <ais523> I don't know, I've never played it |
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141 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:43:38: <elliott_> Vorpal: you seem to have missed the part where ais523 explicitly criticised your publisher-based definition |
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142 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:44:11: <ais523> elliott_: oh right, I'd forgotten that his scrollback sometimes doesn't even extend one line |
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143 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:44:38: <elliott_> <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase |
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144 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:44:41: <elliott_> <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage |
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145 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:44:43: <elliott_> <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game? |
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146 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:44:55: <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, technically I believe Skyrim is an indie game though. Heh. |
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147 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:44:56: <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: it's being used as "game not created by a major development company", which is not the same, but is a different literal meaning of the same phrase |
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148 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:45:02: <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, true, that is what it is used for, but then is Trine 2 an indie game? |
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149 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:45:07: <Vorpal> <ais523> no, your definition is stupid because it doesn't match common usage |
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150 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:51:30: <ais523> elliott_: I was going on the meanings of "independent" and "video game" combined |
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151 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:51:43: <ais523> as in, I assumed that Vorpal meant "literal" as in "composed out of the meanings of the individual words" |
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152 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:51:48: <ais523> as it was the sense he seemed to be using it in |
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153 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:13:52:24: <Vorpal> <ais523> as in, I assumed that Vorpal meant "literal" as in "composed out of the meanings of the individual words" <-- indeed |
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154 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:14:37:36: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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155 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:00:13: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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156 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:23:28: <ais523> <Judge Alsup> In the copyright-liability briefs due on March 9, please include analysis of whether or not the copyrightability of the selection, arrangement, and structure of the APIs depend on the underlying programming language being Java as opposed to Python or QBASIC or other non- Java programming language. |
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157 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:23:38: * ais523 wonders what possessed him to ask that |
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158 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:23:43: <ais523> and the selection of languages, fwiw |
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159 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:47:39: <Friendship> ais523: Today in History: Oracle convinces government that only programs written in or implementing Java are copyrightable. |
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160 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:48:26: <ais523> Friendship: that would be ridiculous :) |
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161 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:16:56:55: <ais523> @tell lambdabot thanks for relaying all these messages for us |
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162 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:17:03:21: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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163 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:17:58:35: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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164 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:18:48:20: <ais523> it only helps when it gets rid of a pair of parens |
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165 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:21:24:40: <ais523> just heard on a TV quiz show: the contestant was asked what Babbage was famous for (multiple choice), and discounted inventing the computer because she thought Apple invented the computer |
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166 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-01.txt:21:56:13: <ais523> Friendship is your middle name? |
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167 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:00:13:04: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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168 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:17:51:28: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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169 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:17:53:34: <ais523> hey, look what my supervisor did: https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/ |
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170 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:17:53:49: <ais523> (at least vaguely ontopic) |
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171 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:17:57:23: <Friendship> ais523: I like how the page starts with a brief description of what the tool is, then its development history, then download information. |
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172 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:17:59:30: <ais523> hmm, where does it say that? |
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173 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:17:59:50: <ais523> let me try with JS and cookies on |
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174 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:00:31: <ais523> hmm, no |
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175 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:00:42: * ais523 wonders if he/she's somehow missing sarcasm |
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176 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:01:38: <ais523> ah, OK |
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177 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:01:49: <ais523> anyway, the website was made entirely by my supervisor |
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178 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:01:51: <ais523> I mostly just wrote code for it |
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179 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:02:15: <ais523> (try spotting typos in the EULA, if you want some fun; we just put up what the lawyers told us to) |
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180 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:02:25: <ais523> (or alternatively, try out the code) |
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181 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:04:59: <ais523> I am also not inspired by it being made in Google Sites |
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182 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:21:32: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). |
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183 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:18:26:36: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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184 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:19:28:00: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). |
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185 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:19:45:06: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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186 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:14:29: <elliott> ais523: Did he rename it again>? |
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187 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:15:05: <ais523> elliott: GOS is the name of the compiler, Verity is the name of the language |
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188 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:15:12: <ais523> and the file extension is .ia |
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189 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:18:23: <ais523> err, if you /don't/ accept the license, then you can't distribute derivative works of it at all because nothing's licensing it to you |
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190 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:18:26: <ais523> what do you think of it, anyway? |
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191 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:18:46: <elliott> ais523: I can't distribute them, but if I agreed to the license, I would be prohibited from even making them |
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192 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:19:03: <ais523> well, OK |
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193 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:22:11: <ais523> actually, I'd better go home before I miss the last bus |
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194 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:22:16: <ais523> I got a little preoccupied with Rubicon… |
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195 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:22:20: <ais523> bye everyone |
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196 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-02.txt:23:22:24: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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197 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:16:00:27: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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198 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:16:01:09: <ais523> so, to recall a conversation from ages ago, I figured out how to make highlight work together with less and lesspipe |
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199 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:16:01:38: <ais523> just write 'highlight -A "$1" 2>/dev/null' in ~/.lessfilter, and chmod it executable |
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200 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:16:03:19: <ais523> lesspipe calls ~/.lessfilter, and if it errors out, lesspipe handles the error itself (by falling back to what it would have done anyway), so you don't have to handle lesspipe failing |
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201 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:38:22: <ais523> perhaps I should put the gosc stuff in the topic |
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202 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:38:55: <ais523> elliott: btw, they're counting views of the license page as downloads of the software, because they don't host it themselves and are using google analytics in an attempt to count downloads indirectly |
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203 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:39:22: <elliott> ais523: well, I viewed the license page at least twice for my one download (which was not under the license) |
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204 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:39:45: <ais523> hmm, you'll probably cancel out me |
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205 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:39:54: <ais523> admittedly, I've never downloaded the software from there because I haven't needed to |
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206 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:40:06: <ais523> Sgeo: https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/ |
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207 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:40:11: <ais523> admire the beatifully well-designed website |
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208 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:42:04: <ais523> Sgeo: it's a compiler from Verity to VHDL |
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209 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:42:47: <ais523> right, because we invented Verity for the purpose |
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210 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:42:57: <ais523> it's a call-by-name higher-order statically-typed language |
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211 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:43:07: <ais523> which is really an Algol variant, but in disguise |
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212 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:43:47: <ais523> right, with lambdas |
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213 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:44:02: <ais523> elliott: but the example programs are very permissively licensed |
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214 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:44:39: <elliott> ais523: Did the University grant you permission to license them in that way? If so, why not the rest of the package? |
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215 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:45:20: <elliott> ais523: How much will it personally inconvenience you if I try and annoy them with this? |
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216 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:45:32: <ais523> elliott: it's licensed so as to retain the ability to commercialise |
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217 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:48:24: <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Someone gotta pay them so I can use them as a platform for indignancy wrt ais523's compiler's licensing. |
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218 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:48:51: <Phantom_Hoover> What's ais523's compiler's licensing? |
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219 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:48:59: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a crazy EULA |
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220 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:49:11: <ais523> I told the lawyers about the obvious contradictions and I fixed them |
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221 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:49:18: <ais523> *they fixed them |
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222 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:49:20: <ais523> but not the typos |
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223 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:49:24: <ais523> it's a licence agreement |
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224 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:50:13: <elliott> ais523: (ii) You many make derivative works for the purposes of non-commercial research. |
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225 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:50:47: <ais523> I still think "LICENCE.rtf" is the best one |
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226 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:50:59: <ais523> I asked if I should rename the file, but meh |
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227 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:51:07: <ais523> I /did/ turn the executable bit off, though |
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228 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:51:37: <ais523> elliott: what you do is you sell it to Xilinx and Altera for a fortune |
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229 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:51:41: <ais523> /then/ you opensource it :) |
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230 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:51:55: <ais523> (note: probably wouldn't work in practice) |
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231 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:52:24: <ais523> feel free; I recommend that you GPLv3 it |
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232 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:21:52:36: <ais523> (v3 is very important in this context, for reasons that I hope are obvious) |
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233 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:23:29:47: <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory |
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234 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:23:30:11: <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory |
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235 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:23:30:14: <HackEgo> 818) <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory |
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236 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-03.txt:23:30:28: <ais523> it was a rhetorical question :) |
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237 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:00:12:54: <ais523> oerjan: two, in fact |
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238 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:00:13:16: <ais523> the treadmill on wheels thing is ridiculous :) |
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239 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:00:13:33: <ais523> it took me a while to figure out if it'd go forwards or backwards |
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240 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:00:13:51: <ais523> (forwards if the wheels rub against the treadmill belt, backwards if they're connected to the treadmill's rollers) |
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241 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:00:19:07: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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242 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:05:08:46: <HackEgo> 2011-07-22.txt:20:14:13: <ais523> probably a really obscure method involving libraries |
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243 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:05:08:59: <HackEgo> 2009-03-03.txt:16:09:09: <ehird> ais523_: ## is not obscure!! |
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244 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:05:10:37: <HackEgo> 2011-12-01.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing) |
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245 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:16:20:43: <elliott> 23:29:47: <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory |
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246 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:16:22:08: <elliott> @tell oerjan gosc is the compiler ais523 talks about a lot from idealised ALGOL (with lambdas) to VHDL |
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247 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:00:54: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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248 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:07:36: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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249 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:07:57: <ais523> hi elliott |
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250 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:09:03: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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251 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:09:20: * ais523 sees no need to continue the pattern |
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252 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:09:36: <olsner> hi ais523 |
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253 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:21:16: <ais523> oh, hmm |
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254 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:21:24: <ais523> I think I fixed the permissions problem in Web of Lies, anyway |
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255 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:21:43: <ais523> by soft-dropping permissions, and temporarily undropping them in the offending bit of code |
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256 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:22:02: <ais523> it's not /quite/ as secure, but the only bit that soft-drops is the control process, the other two still hard-drop |
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257 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:22:45: <ais523> should be secure against non-malicious accidents; it just increases the attack surface somewhat for people trying to exploit suid weboflies, or whatever, and who'd be mad enough to suid it? |
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258 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:26:08: <elliott> ais523: don't tempt me |
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259 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:26:23: <Phantom_Hoover> hi ais523 |
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260 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:26:37: <ais523> hi Phantom_Hoover |
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261 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:26:40: <ais523> elliott: tempt you into what? |
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262 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:26:42: <ais523> suiding weboflies? |
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263 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:28:15: <elliott> ais523: yes |
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264 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:32:47: <ais523> what I really need to do is get X working inside it |
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265 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:33:01: <ais523> perhaps I could trick X into thinking it's root; I wonder what would go wrong then |
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266 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:34:00: <ais523> is there any way I can get X to just use the framebuffer for rendering? |
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267 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:34:04: <elliott> ais523: X tries to talk to the graphics hardware, so... |
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268 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:34:25: <elliott> ais523: there's also Xephyr |
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269 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:34:56: <ais523> hmm, those both seem reasonable |
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270 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:35:02: <elliott> ais523: wait, Xvfb doesn't seem to be KDrive |
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271 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:35:11: <elliott> ais523: search your distro for a package |
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272 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:35:19: <ais523> one step ahead of you there :) |
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273 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:36:07: <ais523> even better, I can't think of any reasonable reason for xvfb to need root |
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274 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:36:14: <ais523> that doesn't mean it won't, ofc |
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275 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:37:44: <elliott> ais523: you could VNC into Xvfb or something, anyway :P |
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276 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:38:08: <ais523> olsner: it's what Wikipedia recommends |
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277 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:38:27: <ais523> it also suggests using a screenshot program inside xvfb to get at the screen |
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278 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:40:53: <ais523> ooh, xvfb has a command-line option to memory-map its framebuffer into a file |
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279 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:41:04: <ais523> that's exactly what I was doing with the fake framebuffer in weboflies anyway |
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280 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:41:07: <elliott> ais523: VNC sounds like less work :P |
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281 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:41:14: <ais523> so the two graphics methods should be swappable trivially |
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282 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:41:33: <ais523> elliott: using one command-line option to reduce it to a problem I've already solved is more work than VNC? |
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283 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:42:03: <ais523> elliott: well, the specific problem that VNC would solve |
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284 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:42:13: <ais523> not the whole thing, obviously |
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285 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:42:26: <elliott> ais523: I mean, I bet the file has a different format, etc. |
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286 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:42:28: <elliott> ais523: anyway, if this saga doesn't end with you running KDE in it, you've failed |
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287 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:42:37: <ais523> why KDE specifically? |
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288 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:43:08: <elliott> ais523: well... it was still more of a hog than Gnome as of a short while ago |
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289 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:43:50: <fizzie> ais523: Someone claims that Xorg with the fbdev graphics driver is doable as non-root assuming it can access all the necessary dev nodes: http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2010/09/msg00091.html |
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290 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:44:16: <ais523> fizzie: thanks; that's my fallback position if I can't get xvfb to work |
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291 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:44:24: <ais523> I assumed it would be |
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292 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:44:44: <ais523> (the /dev nodes don't actually exist, but I'm faking them by intercepting system calls involving them, so I can choose permissions arbitrarily |
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293 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:45:48: <ais523> elliott: well, it's how I got /dev/fb working |
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294 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:45:53: <ais523> it was quite a bit of work |
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295 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:46:01: <ais523> fun fact: quite a few games actually run without X, using the framebuffer |
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296 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:46:07: <ais523> but you typically get a bunch of graphical glitches |
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297 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:46:23: <ais523> I suspect the hard part's actually going to be emulating socketcall, IIRC X uses sockets to work |
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298 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:46:29: <elliott> ais523: right, I just meant you wouldn't have to change your code at all |
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299 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:47:02: <ais523> and hmm, right, I wouldn't have to change it, apart from loading X somehow |
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300 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:47:24: <ais523> I do |
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301 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:47:43: <ais523> the framebuffer itself works fine; it's actually the keyboard I have the most trouble with, as I can't figure out what format it's in |
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302 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:47:51: <ais523> I was working on a fake mouse at the time |
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303 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:48:08: <ais523> elliott: it can, that's what I was going to do if I couldn't get X working as non-root |
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304 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:48:22: <ais523> but permissions checks are all over the place in syscalls, it'd take a bunch of work to fake comprehensively |
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305 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:48:27: <ais523> and it'd also mean figuring out what process X was |
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306 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:48:34: <elliott> ais523: well, there's no problem to keep the checks around |
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307 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:49:08: <ais523> I think the sanity checks are probably actually in startx |
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308 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:49:30: <ais523> what's the most common $DISPLAY value? :0.0? |
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309 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:49:55: <ais523> $ sudo ./weboflies ls /dev/input |
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310 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:50:00: <ais523> + pty output: mice\x0d\x0a |
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311 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:51:02: <ais523> $ sudo ./weboflies Xvfb :1 |
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312 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:51:12: <ais523> + pty output: _XSERVTransmkdir: ERROR: euid != 0,directory /tmp/.X11-unix will not be created.\x0d\x0a |
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313 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:51:19: <ais523> I wonder why it wanted to be root? |
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314 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:51:37: <ais523> well, apparently so |
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315 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:51:43: <ais523> but why would it want to be root to do that? |
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316 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:51:59: <elliott> ais523: that's the socket, it seems |
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317 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:52:06: <ais523> oh, I see |
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318 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:52:18: <ais523> that explains why it'd want to be root for /that/ |
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319 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:52:55: <ais523> yep, there's a lot of "WARNING: Unknown syscall 102" there |
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320 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:09: <ais523> and then a couple of "unexpected signal 11" |
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321 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:11: <ais523> is that segfault? |
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322 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:18: <ais523> hmm |
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323 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:19: <elliott> olsner: I don't think ais523 has TCP either |
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324 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:35: <ais523> olsner: TCP and unix-socket go through the same syscall, which I haven't implemented |
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325 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:59: <ais523> elliott: I know, I have a text file of syscals |
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326 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:53:59: <ais523> *syscalls |
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327 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:54:04: <olsner> ais523: oh, I think you need to implement that syscall then :> |
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328 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:54:08: <ais523> together with timing properties, and why they have or haven't been implemented |
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329 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:54:11: <ais523> olsner: I know |
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330 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:54:24: <ais523> the problem is, it's mostly undocumented |
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331 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:00: <fizzie> ais523: You should be doing this on a BSD, they don't mux all socket stuff through a single syscall. |
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332 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:11: <elliott> ais523: why not just forward socketcall without processing to test it? |
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333 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:18: <ais523> the man page says it's the syscall that implements accept, bind, connect, getpeername, getsockname, getsockopt, listen, recv, recvfrom, recvmsg, send, sendmsg, sendto, setsockopt, shutdown, socket, socketpair |
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334 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:20: <ais523> but not the format |
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335 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:32: <ais523> elliott: that's what weboflies does do on unknown syscalls |
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336 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:38: <ais523> but apparently it makes xvfb segfault |
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337 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:56: <fizzie> ais523: I've heard the Linux source code has been leaked, maybe you could sneak a peek. |
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338 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:55:57: <ais523> (actually, the segfault's probably unrelated, it's probably assuming something that isn't actually true) |
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339 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:56:18: <ais523> fizzie: I have also dived into kernel source quite a bit for figuring out this sort of thing |
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340 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:56:24: <ais523> but I can hardly do that in a few minutes while eating dinner |
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341 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:56:26: <elliott> <ais523> elliott: that's what weboflies does do on unknown syscalls |
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342 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:56:31: <elliott> ais523: err, it clearly doesn't forward 102 |
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343 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:56:45: <ais523> it warns and then forwards |
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344 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:56:53: <ais523> the warning means it's being forwarded without knowing the implications |
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345 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:19:59:03: <ais523> I doubt it, it's being printed to stdout of the host process, which isn't part of the anonymous fs at all |
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346 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:06:44: <ais523> ais523@desert:~/weboflies$ ln -s Xvfb_screen0 /tmp/Xvfb_screen0.xwd |
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347 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:06:45: <ais523> ais523@desert:~/weboflies$ convert /tmp/Xvfb_screen0.xwd /tmp/t.png |
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348 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:06:47: <ais523> ais523@desert:~/weboflies$ eog /tmp/t.png |
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349 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:06:57: <ais523> so Xvfb is definitely working outside weboflies |
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350 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:08:16: <elliott> ais523: what does t.png look like? |
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351 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:08:36: <ais523> a black screen with an xterm in the top-left corner |
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352 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:08:50: <ais523> there were meant to be two of them, but I hadn't started a window manager |
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353 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:20:08:58: <ais523> so I guess they overlapped exactly |
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354 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:19:28: <ais523> Friendship: the spaces are two narrow for me |
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355 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:19:33: <ais523> *too |
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356 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:19:38: <ais523> Sgeo_: haha, wow |
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357 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:22:17: <ais523> a/ha/, Xvfb wants /tmp/X11-unix to exist already |
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358 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:22:41: <elliott> ais523: *. |
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359 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:22:51: <ais523> ? |
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360 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:22:52: <ais523> er, . |
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361 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:22:54: <ais523> I see |
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362 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:33:50: <ais523> !c printf("%x %x", '', '‹'); |
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363 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:34:29: <ais523> !c printf("%d", 0xe2); |
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364 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:34:48: <ais523> !c printf("%d", 0213); |
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365 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:41:04: <elliott> <ais523> !c printf("%x %x", '', '‹'); |
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366 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:41:40: <ais523> 31, I think |
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367 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:41:57: <ais523> elliott: someone's got a bunch of binary data they're trying to decote |
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368 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:41:59: <ais523> *decode |
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369 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:42:06: <ais523> fizzie: underlined for me |
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370 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:42:24: <elliott> ais523: ? |
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371 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:42:33: <ais523> I suspect it's a zipfile that's been run through a bunch of re-encodings between UTF-8, and some 8-bit encoding that isn't latin-1 |
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372 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:42:35: <ais523> but can't tell for sure |
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373 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:43:03: <ais523> the first byte is correct, but the second isn't |
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374 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:43:52: <ais523> hey, perhaps it's Windows-12452 |
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375 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:43:55: <ais523> *Windows-1252 |
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376 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:44:55: <ais523> nope |
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377 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:45:13: <ais523> olsner: it was copy-pasted into a forum post here: http://pnewman.net/shelter/viewtopic.php?p=11249&f=2#p11249 |
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378 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:45:21: <ais523> I asked the author if they have the original |
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379 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:45:25: <ais523> because phpBB is not a good way to send binary files |
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380 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:45:47: <ais523> olsner: see why I'm having problems decoding it? |
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381 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:45:53: <ais523> I think it was just gzipped |
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382 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:45:59: <ais523> before it went through the copy-paste |
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383 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:46:31: <ais523> well, obviously |
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384 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:21:59:35: <ais523> fizzie: I'm guessing that phpBB interpreted it as windows-1252 and converted it to utf-8, except possibly where it was legal utf-8 already |
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385 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:01:30: <ais523> I guess it should be treated as a literal 8f, then? |
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386 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:02:44: <ais523> hmm |
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387 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:03:22: <ais523> we need a windows-1252-or-otherwise-literally encoding |
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388 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:05:00: <ais523> right |
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389 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:06:08: <ais523> oh dear, I doubt we're going to be able to get iconv expanded to handle this case, either |
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390 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:06:14: <ais523> it was written by Ulrich Drepper |
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391 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:08:21: <ais523> As of Encode 2.12 CHECK can also be a code reference which takes the |
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392 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:08:22: <ais523> ord value of unmapped caharacter as an argument and returns a string |
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393 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:08:24: <ais523> that represents the fallback character. For instance, |
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394 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:08:38: <ais523> fizzie: try using sub {@_[0]} as your argument |
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395 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:10:39: <ais523> no |
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396 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:10:43: <ais523> but it seems likely to be |
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397 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:10:52: <ais523> it was originally from a web browser cache |
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398 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:11:01: <ais523> and it has the right magic number |
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399 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:11:26: <ais523> oh, huh, that's indeed possible |
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400 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:11:47: <ais523> yep |
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401 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:12:41: <ais523> anyway, is this likely to be fixed soon, or shall I go home? I need to go home |
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402 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-04.txt:22:16:25: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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403 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:00:47:23: <lambdabot> elliott said 8h 25m 10s ago: gosc is the compiler ais523 talks about a lot from idealised ALGOL (with lambdas) to VHDL |
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404 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:14:57:23: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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405 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:02:22: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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406 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:02:37: <ais523> hi elliott |
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407 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:02:47: <ais523> how's (insert project here) getting on? |
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408 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:03:17: <ais523> and have you been working on anything recently? |
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409 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:03:39: <ais523> anyway, fun fact about Linux: UNIX sockets don't respect chroots, despite looking like filenames |
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410 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:03:43: <ais523> and, hmm, last week or so? |
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411 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:04:34: <ais523> if you have a socket /tmp/.X11-unix/X0, then you can't have another socket called /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 open at the same time |
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412 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:04:42: <ais523> even if they happen to be different tmps due to the processes having different root directories |
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413 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:05:03: <ais523> I was trying to figure out htf a process inside weboflies could detect X outside it, apparently that was how |
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414 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:05:28: <elliott> ais523: start the X as 99? |
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415 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:05:47: <ais523> elliott: nah, better, there's a kernel flag, implemented quite recently, to separate network namespaces |
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416 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:05:54: <ais523> in fact, I think it makes socketcall work by itself |
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417 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:06:14: <ais523> you try to make a TCP connection and get all sorts of beautiful errors because there's no networking-related initialisation at all |
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418 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:06:39: <ais523> do weboflies nc localhost 9999, and you get an error message back that it couldn't determine the IP address that localhost referred to |
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419 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:06:50: <ais523> because there isn't an /etc/hosts inside weboflies, and it has no other sort of DNS |
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420 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:08:07: <ais523> + pty output: telnet: could not resolve google.com/telnet: Servname not supported for ai_socktype\x0d\x0a |
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421 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:08:17: <ais523> elliott: no, not yet, haven't looked at Esolang since I came online |
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422 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:08:22: <ais523> but that's somewhat amusing |
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423 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:08:24: <elliott> ais523: aw, I spoiled the surprise |
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424 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:08:46: <ais523> ah, you revesed the archiving |
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425 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:09:29: <ais523> we need a Category:Almost as Shameful |
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426 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:10:10: <ais523> hmm, I think we should ban low-level stuff that works along the same lines as CPUs worked decades ago |
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427 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:10:41: <ais523> because it's perpetuating the myth that computers actually work like that, and leading to worldwide inefficiency as a result |
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428 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:10:44: <ais523> WORLDWIDE! |
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429 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:10:49: <ais523> oh, I meant everywhere, not Esolang |
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430 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:11:14: <ais523> this would also imply banning x86, but I don't see the problem :) |
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431 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:11:19: <elliott> ais523: I do my part by fuming inside whenever anyone hails assembly as "right on the bare metal" |
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432 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:13:03: <ais523> elliott: oh, did you hear about the Linode hack? |
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433 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:13:06: <elliott> ais523: yep |
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434 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:13:27: <ais523> do you have opinions on it? |
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435 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:13:52: <elliott> ais523: the breach itself, in terms of what was done (just stealing credentials), is uneventful; the security policies it revealed are really bad |
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436 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:14:14: <fizzie> ais523: I suggested bitcoin micropayments (0.50 BTC/edit) for the esowiki, in order to make it a target for such activities; currently all the cool guys just ignore it, going after bitcoins. |
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437 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:14:30: <ais523> elliott: well, they also stole thousands of bitcoins, a bunch of Slashdot people think it was an inside job |
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438 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:14:40: <elliott> ais523: the breach itself, I meant as in "the attack" |
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439 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:14:43: <ais523> fizzie: 0.50 BTC is actually quite a lot |
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440 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:14:46: <ais523> elliott: OK |
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441 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:15:03: <ais523> it's between $2 and $3, right? |
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442 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:15:07: <elliott> ais523: "inside job" conspiracies sound right up Slashdot's alley |
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443 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:15:18: <ais523> seems a bit much for an edit |
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444 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:15:23: <ais523> elliott: subset-of-Slashdot? indeed |
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445 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:15:44: <ais523> also everything else |
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446 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:15:53: <ais523> I wouldn't help maintain the wiki if I had to pay $3 per edit |
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447 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:16:09: <elliott> ais523: oh, admins actually /get/ 0.50 BTC per edit |
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448 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:16:42: <ais523> from where? |
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449 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:16:52: <elliott> ais523: other edits, obviously |
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450 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:19:32: <elliott> ais523: anyway, the real story is that people would store such large amounts of money on budget-ish VPS providers |
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451 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:20:29: <ais523> elliott: actually, they seem to have been acting quite sensibly, all the money stolen was a small proportion of the money that the person actually owned |
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452 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:20:51: <ais523> stuff that was being actively traded rather than in storage |
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453 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:21:12: <elliott> ais523: well, I hear figures around a month's worth of money and the like |
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454 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:21:16: <ais523> which leads me to wonder, how did Bitcoin exchanges get so big that around $200000 is only a tiny proportion of the total amount of money they're handling? |
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455 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:21:35: <elliott> ais523: drugs, mostly |
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456 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:22:07: <ais523> yep, wrt organisations |
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457 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:30:08: <ais523> elliott: hmm, I'm suddenly reminded of the way that some commonly used programming language (I can't remember whether it was Perl or Python) treats invalid characters in its input, when re-encoding, by encoding them to invalid characters in its output |
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458 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:30:23: <ais523> e.g. converting invalid UTF-8 to invalid UTF-16 in a reversible way |
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459 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:33:24: <ais523> "I saved that straight from the cache and the [code] tags should stop any formatting. I'll upload it when I have a chance, but I'm pretty sure it's identical." |
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460 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:33:27: <ais523> binary files do not work like that! |
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461 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:34:04: <ais523> anyway, really crazy idea: is it possible to get a hashlife-like algorithm to work on a random initial state by lazifying the randomness? |
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462 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:34:51: <ais523> other anyway: I'm annoyed that X seems to segfault inside weboflies but not outside (both Xorg and Xvfb, which appear to be doing the same thing when they segfault) |
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463 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:35:03: <ais523> how do you request debug symbols for a package in Ubuntu? |
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464 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:35:13: <ais523> then all I'll have to do is get core dumps working inside weboflies… |
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465 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:54:25: <elliott> <ais523> "I saved that straight from the cache and the [code] tags should stop any formatting. I'll upload it when I have a chance, but I'm pretty sure it's identical." |
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466 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:54:29: <elliott> ais523: we quoted that yesterday, too |
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467 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:55:12: <elliott> <ais523> how do you request debug symbols for a package in Ubuntu? |
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468 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:15:55:50: <ais523> ah, there's an xserver-xorg-core-dbg |
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469 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:22:25: <ais523> I can't even figure out why weboflies would make a program segfault |
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470 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:22:48: <ais523> my guess is that it's assuming the existence of a file that doesn't exist and not checking an error condition, but it doesn't happen right after a file-related syscall |
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471 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:24:05: <fizzie> ais523: How do you deal with shared-memory blocks? |
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472 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:24:35: <ais523> mmap-based shared memory? I simply ensure that the scheduler's deterministic |
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473 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:24:42: <ais523> on the basis that processes can't access the shared memory while they aren't running |
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474 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:24:59: <ais523> this will break if someone spinlocks on shared memory, but who does that? |
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475 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:25:07: <ais523> (also, it'll break by going into an infinite loop, rather than segfaulting) |
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476 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:26:18: <ais523> yes, weboflies |
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477 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:26:44: <ais523> which is, err, nontrivial to explain |
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478 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:26:53: <ais523> (formerly known as the Secret Project, but it's less secret than it used to be) |
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479 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:27:01: <elliott> <ais523> I can't even figure out why weboflies would make a program segfault |
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480 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:27:16: <elliott> ais523: ooh, you should post your weboflies problems on SO, the reactions would be priceless |
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481 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:27:20: <ais523> elliott: you /do/ know what happens if you put gdb and weboflies together, right? |
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482 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:10: <ais523> stackoverflow is meant to be a collaborative FAQ building site, right? |
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483 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:15: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a program regulariser |
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484 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:24: <ais523> it makes Linux programs run in a repeatable way |
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485 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:25: <fizzie> ais523: I mean shared memory objects, you know, the sysv IPC style. Those have their own namespace (the 'keys'), and so on. |
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486 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:32: <ais523> fizzie: ah, OK |
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487 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:37: <ais523> I don't think I've caught anything using them yet |
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488 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:44: <elliott> <ais523> stackoverflow is meant to be a collaborative FAQ building site, right? |
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489 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:28:51: <ais523> but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be regularised the same as everything else? |
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490 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:29:45: <fizzie> ais523: It's just that X has that widespread MIT-SHM extension, I was wondering. |
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491 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:30:34: <ais523> besides, there's only one process when it goes wrong |
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492 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:31:05: <ais523> so I don't think IPC is responsible |
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493 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:31:19: <ais523> and if weboflies doesn't have a syscall implemented, it forwards it to the actual kernel |
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494 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:32:52: <elliott> hey ais523, can you buy me more RAM? |
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495 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:33:09: <ais523> what for? |
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496 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:33:13: <ais523> the answer is probably going to be no anyway |
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497 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:33:19: <ais523> but that doesn't stop me being curious |
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498 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:34:21: <ais523> that seems statistically likely, I wouldn't expect him to have died unexpectedly |
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499 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:37:22: <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, can you get core dumps out of weboflies'd processes? It sounds not impossible for those to be gdb'able, depending on how things go. |
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500 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:37:37: <ais523> fizzie: that's what I'm wondering at the moment |
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501 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:37:56: <ais523> part of the problem is that even if it is dumping, I have no way to tell |
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502 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:38:02: <ais523> as it's being dumped on a filesystem that doesnt' exist |
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503 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:38:17: <ais523> and I can't do something like sh -c'program; ls' due to a ptrace misfeature |
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504 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:38:22: <ais523> that strace has an insane workaround for |
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505 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:38:45: <ais523> that I'll probably have to implement some day |
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506 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:39:03: <ais523> that reminds me, why /didn't/ I download strace's source, rather than relying on strace strace to determine everything about how it works? |
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507 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:40:59: <ais523> 3-clause BSD, by the look of it |
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508 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:41:11: <ais523> so I could even use code from it if necessary |
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509 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:43:54: <fizzie> ais523: What was the basic weboflies mechanism, anyway? ptrace with PTRACE_SYSCALL? |
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510 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:44:00: <ais523> yes |
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511 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:44:05: <ais523> exactly the same as strace |
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512 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:44:39: <ais523> btw, weboflies works inside strace (but not strace -f, nor does strace work inside weboflies) |
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513 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:44:46: <ais523> I wonder if /ltrace/ works inside weboflies? |
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514 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:45:59: <ais523> nope, there's a bunch of "program uses forbidden syscall 26" followed by ltrace complaining about ENOSYS errors |
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515 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:16:52:54: <ais523> right, I can figure out the IP pretty easily |
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516 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:17:10:07: <ais523> I declare 5 March as International Taneb Day |
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517 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:17:16:35: <ais523> the connection was reset, basically |
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518 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:18:02:26: <ais523> Sgeo_: it's too low-level an abstraction |
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519 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:18:04:42: <ais523> probably just using functions, why would you need continuations for that? |
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520 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:18:06:59: <Vorpal> ais523, uh, so how will you do the stuff you could do with call/cc instead? |
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521 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:18:07:09: <ais523> using higher-level abstractions, obviously |
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522 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:18:08:24: <Vorpal> ais523, I seen backtracking implemented with call/cc in a very elegant way, not sure what other abstraction in scheme would be suitable. Sure you could add new ones but will you need multiple ones or will whatever replaces call/cc be as flexible? |
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523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:20:05:31: <ais523> btw, the GitHub hack is hilarious |
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524 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:20:05:53: <ais523> it seems that Rails has a feature that's suspiciously like register_globals |
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525 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:20:06:08: <ais523> and GitHub were using it without proper security checks |
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526 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:06: <ais523> Vorpal: you're missing the point of the placeholder |
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527 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:21: <ais523> it's not necessarily "I don't know what it's called", but "other people won't know what it's called" |
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528 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:26: <Vorpal> ais523, uh, I was correcting "moneys" |
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529 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:33: <ais523> Vorpal: it's a placholder |
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530 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:36: <ais523> *placeholder |
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531 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:39: <ais523> to make the sentence more legible |
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532 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:52:47: <Vorpal> ais523, so "currency units (septims)" |
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533 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:21:57:33: <ais523> what is a .plan? |
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534 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:00:22: <ais523> zzo38: /all/ the constellations in the ecliptic, there's an astrological sign not named after that constellation |
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535 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:00:27: <ais523> at least 11 of them, in fact |
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536 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:00:54: <zzo38> ais523: Maybe I should rephrase the question, it isn't very good |
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537 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:02:06: <zzo38> ais523: Do you know a better way to rephrase the question? |
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538 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:02:46: <ais523> "which constellation on the ecliptic does not have an astrological sign named after it?" |
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539 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:03:22: <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is better. |
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540 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:03:38: <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> ais523, so "currency units (septims)" |
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541 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:04:21: <ais523> [1] probably not, there are probably minor constellations on the ecliptic that don't have names; [2] no |
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542 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:05:12: <zzo38> ais523: I think all constellations have names because the IAU defined all areas of the celestial sphere as belonging to one of 88 Latin constellations. |
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543 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:28:26: <ais523> they're just x̂, ŷ, ẑ in an xyzh coordinate system, aren't they? |
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544 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:28:38: <ais523> also, my IRC client renders those combined characters pretty badly |
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545 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:28:47: <Vorpal> ais523, uh is that how you write unit vectors? x with a ^ on top? |
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546 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:29:05: <ais523> it's what's taught in school in the UK |
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547 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:29:21: <ais523> ^ on top = unit vector, regardless of whether it's in an axis direction or not |
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548 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:31:10: <ais523> fizzie: oh, you're right |
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549 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:31:24: <ais523> it is î, ĵ, k̂ |
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550 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:31:27: <ais523> not x/y/z |
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551 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:36:40: <ais523> Vorpal: the two are probably connected, if you think about it |
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552 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:37:10: <Vorpal> ais523, hm? the two questions I raised? Or the two usages of the same symbol? |
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553 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:37:43: <ais523> Vorpal: writing the same thing different ways, and same symbol used for different things |
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554 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:37:52: <ais523> you have to invent new notations on the fly to avoid clashes |
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555 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:38:56: <Vorpal> ais523, so you are saying 5 different persons needed to come up with a notation for vectors? That is a lot of independent research around the same time finding the same concept then |
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556 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:39:45: <ais523> it's bad enough, in my field, that for the same notion, some people are using ⩽ for the same thing that other people are using ⩾ for |
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557 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:40:05: <ais523> Vorpal: and I'm saying that notation that avoids clashes for one person, will have clashes for someone else |
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558 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:40:14: <ais523> people who use vectors almost exclusively aren't going to want to write in arrows all the time |
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559 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:40:29: <ais523> but people who use both vectors and other things may need them to avoid clashes |
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560 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:40:52: <Vorpal> <ais523> it's bad enough, in my field, that for the same notion, some people are using ⩽ for the same thing that other people are using ⩾ for <-- wow |
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561 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:41:04: <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: and I'm saying that notation that avoids clashes for one person, will have clashes for someone else <-- ah, right |
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562 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:42:28: <ais523> actually, might have been ≤ and ≥, I can't remember |
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563 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:43:08: <Vorpal> ais523, isn't ≤ just a different way to write ⩽? Different stylizing I mean |
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564 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:43:15: <ais523> not always, but yes sometimes |
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565 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:43:29: <ais523> why do you think they have different Unicode codepoints? |
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566 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:43:50: <Vorpal> ais523, good point |
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567 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:45:01: <ais523> it's got to be either l or h, I think |
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568 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:45:55: <Vorpal> ais523, btw you said xyzh for homogenus coordinate above, it is just that I seem to remember it being xyzw in some contexts (such as opengl)? |
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569 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:46:21: <ais523> opengl has sets of four arbitrary letters that it uses for coordinates without knowing what they mean |
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570 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:46:26: <ais523> wait, CUDA does |
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571 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:46:40: <ais523> actually, probably it's /actually/ GLSL |
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572 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:46:45: <ais523> I know too many GPU-related frameworks |
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573 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:46:53: <ais523> so you can address a vector as xyzw or as rgba, for instance |
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574 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:47:11: <ais523> there are a few other schemes, they had to use weird letters sometimes to avoid clashes |
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575 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-05.txt:22:47:25: <Vorpal> ais523, um, opengl accpets xyzw, rgba, 0123, <something I forgot related to texture coordinates>A |
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576 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:00:06:00: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). |
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577 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:14:11:39: <elliott> 18:08:24: <Vorpal> ais523, I seen backtracking implemented with call/cc in a very elegant way, not sure what other abstraction in scheme would be suitable. Sure you could add new ones but will you need multiple ones or will whatever replaces call/cc be as flexible? |
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578 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:20:09:20: <elliott> I also have ais523 on my side, so ha. |
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579 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:20:41:17: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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580 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:20:42:40: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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581 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:20:43:30: <ais523> hi |
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582 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:34:30: <elliott> Hey, where'd ais523 come from? |
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583 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:34:36: <elliott> ais523: Did you sneak in? |
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584 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:34:46: <ais523> I've been here for ages, you even said hi to me |
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585 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:35:15: <elliott> ais523: WELL HI AGAIN. |
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586 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:35:21: <ais523> hi! |
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587 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:35:53: <elliott> ais523: DID YOU KNOW they're changing the diffs even more massively than previously thought? |
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588 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:36:06: <ais523> no |
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589 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:36:17: <ais523> is that from a recently created article? |
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590 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:37:55: <ais523> that's a PNG, not a PDF |
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591 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:39:42: <ais523> meh, I am not emotionally involved in this change |
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592 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:40:37: <ais523> oh, you don't like it? |
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593 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:40:50: <ais523> or you just want other people to not like it so you can feel superior? |
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594 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:42:42: <ais523> that's because most website design changes suck |
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595 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:42:52: <ais523> nobody complained when acehack.eu improved its design |
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596 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:43:53: <ais523> elliott: I don't think it does, kerio eventually put an sshd on port 23 in some sort of point |
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597 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:44:09: <ais523> yep, and there's still an sshd there |
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598 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:44:31: <ais523> he means he put sshd on 23 so that nobody could claim that they could use telnet but not ssh |
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599 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:44:43: <ais523> due to firewalls, etc |
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600 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:45:10: <ais523> yes, indeed |
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601 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:45:17: <ais523> Windows XP/Vista, for instance |
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602 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:48:21: <ais523> elliott: they come with telnet by default, ssh you have to install |
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603 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:48:30: <ais523> and you might not be able to install new software |
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604 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:49:06: <ais523> hmm, but they suck for playing roguelikes on |
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605 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-06.txt:23:59:49: <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: they come with telnet by default, ssh you have to install <-- iirc windows 7 doesn't come with telnet by default either |
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606 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:02:53: <ais523> Vorpal: there's a reason I said XP and Vista! |
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607 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:07:22: <ais523> zzo38: how do you design a CPU architecture to prevent DRM? |
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608 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:07:32: <ais523> actually, anti-malware CPU features normally make DRM easier, rather than harder |
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609 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:08:50: <zzo38> ais523: It is not the CPU feature which I intend to change, but the way the CPU is connected to the other components. |
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610 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:10:43: <zzo38> ais523: And the BIOS design, too. (For example, only the BIOS can access the hard drive and optical drive.) |
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611 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:35:02: <ais523> elliott: FLAC is lossless, right? |
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612 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:35:15: <ais523> by the way, did you point out that data's lost turning sound waves into a WAV? (and did anyone else?) |
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613 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:35:26: <ais523> /real/ music purists hire an orchestra to perform for them |
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614 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:00:37:35: <elliott> ais523: Yes, FLAC is lossless. |
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615 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:01:57:51: <ais523> observation: webcomics often make the "next" link on the most recent comic a link to the top of the page |
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616 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:01:58:12: <ais523> theory: because it makes something interesting happen so you know you clicked the link, yet it leaves you on the same page so you know there aren't any more |
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617 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:01:58:17: <ais523> question: why not just gray it out? |
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618 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:01:59:16: <elliott> ais523: answer: styling consistency, ease of coding |
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619 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:01:59:52: <ais523> right, you'd have to have a div that acted like an a |
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620 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:00:01: <ais523> hmm, couldn't you make it an a element but just not hyperlink it anywhere? |
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621 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:00:05: <ais523> href is optional on a |
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622 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:01:06: <ais523> well, we've already established we're overriding the color |
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623 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:01:43: <ais523> hmm, :visited can only override color nowadays, but :hover can override arbitrary properties (I've seen a site that makes links init-caps when you hover them, and lowercase otherwise) |
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624 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:02:04: <ais523> in that case, couldn't you do a pure-CSS analytics thing that figured out where the person was putting their mouse? |
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625 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:02:18: <elliott> ais523: probably, but what would it give you? |
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626 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:02:23: <ais523> elliott: not any more, there were people using :visited to get information about their visitor's previous sites |
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627 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:02:41: <ais523> ah, OK |
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628 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:02:52: <ais523> so it's only properties that don't change metrics, I guess |
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629 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:10:11: <elliott> ais523: how's Feather? |
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630 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:10:24: * ais523 /clear |
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631 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:11:05: <elliott> ais523: how's the @ implementation of feather? :P |
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632 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:11:30: <elliott> Friendship: It's implemented, just waiting on ais523 for Feather. |
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633 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:13:52: <elliott> ais523: wow, Esperanza had over 5000 subpages? |
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634 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:14:01: * elliott likes to just ask ais523 random questions about Wikipedia. |
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635 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:14:45: <ais523> admittedly, that did surprise me when you said it |
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636 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:14:49: <ais523> Esperanza really really got out of hand |
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637 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:15:00: <ais523> *Esperanza |
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638 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:15:32: <ais523> number of edits to esperanza pages before they were deleted |
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639 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:15:36: <ais523> probably |
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640 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:19:25: <ais523> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza is a great but rather long read |
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641 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:19:30: <ais523> at least the nomination message |
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642 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:20:36: <ais523> the ironic thing is, I'm not sure that an oligarchy is a worse way to run a wiki than the technique used for Wikipedia as a whole |
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643 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:21:31: <elliott> ais523: I read the start of that ages ago |
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644 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:22:03: <ais523> well, it was pretty insular |
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645 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:23:22: <ais523> it was basically splitting the community into esperanzans and non-esperanzans |
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646 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:25:50: <ais523> the DRV was hilarious, it was about whether the history should be deleted or not |
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647 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:36:11: <elliott> ais523: hey, how do you use IPv4 multicast? |
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648 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:36:35: <ais523> I don't know, and am not convinced anyone actually implements it |
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649 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:38:13: <ais523> perhaps Wikipedia will know? |
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650 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:43:46: <elliott> ais523: I read the Wikipedia article but it was long and boring |
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651 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:44:08: <ais523> fair enough |
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652 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:44:34: <ais523> calamari: for a literal "at any one time" that tracks realtime, TMMDLPTOELPAITAFNFAL |
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653 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:44:37: <ais523> (I /think/ that's the name) |
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654 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:44:51: <ais523> gah, it isn't |
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655 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:45:06: <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL |
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656 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:45:19: <ais523> I was /so/ close |
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657 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:45:47: <ais523> added a D where there shouldn't be one, added an O where there shouldn't be one, missed an A |
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658 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:46:03: <ais523> I think this is an acceptable amount of misrememberance of such a ridiculous name |
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659 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:47:21: <calamari> ais523: definitely, thanks |
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660 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:47:47: <ais523> calamari: oh, for a language that works like /that/, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Taxi, but it's not quite what you're describing |
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661 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:50:40: <ais523> elliott: wierd is BF-like and 2D, IIRC |
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662 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:50:58: <ais523> you're thinking of Whirl, but that's pretty much just an encoding for a BF-like language in terms of 0 and 1 |
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663 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:54:09: <elliott> ais523: hey, is there any way to preview some edits to a page without all the editing tools around it? (MediaWiki) |
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664 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:54:30: <ais523> elliott: no built-in way, I think |
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665 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:54:39: <ais523> you could probably rig something up with JavaScript |
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666 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:56:39: <calamari> ais523: yep whirl seems the closest.. not a very interesting implementation, but basically it |
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667 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:02:57:01: <ais523> the problem with whirl is that there's no penalty for changing |
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668 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:54:45: <elliott> ais523: have you ever created an esolang that destroyed the world |
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669 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:55:40: <ais523> elliott: I don't think so |
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670 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:55:47: <ais523> do you think the world still exists? |
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671 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:56:31: <shachaf> ais523: Why does elliott hate me? |
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672 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:56:51: <ais523> shachaf: you're insufficiently purely functional |
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673 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:57:23: <elliott> ais523: Well, the International Earth-Destruction Advisory Board lists the current geocide count at 1, so I'm forced to conclude that the world has been destroyed at least once. |
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674 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:57:37: <ais523> Sgeo_: it has first-class functions |
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675 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:58:09: <ais523> not sure, you could check Category:2008 for mine |
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676 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:58:10: <ais523> probably |
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677 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:58:38: <elliott> ais523: "Probably"? You don't have that many esolangs. |
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678 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:58:59: <shachaf> Little known fact: ais523 is the pseudonym of famous esolang inventor ais524. |
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679 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:59:03: <ais523> Sgeo_: no, only all points after it was originally invented |
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680 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:59:26: <elliott> ais523: How's Feather? |
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681 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:59:42: <ais523> elliott: I haven't worked on it for ages |
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682 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:05:59:44: <ais523> and don't plan to in the near future |
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683 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:06:42:48: <ais523> elliott: hey, you edited Burn, this means you need to figure out how it works |
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684 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:06:45:12: <ais523> night! |
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685 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:06:45:18: <ais523> and I know I only ever wrote one |
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686 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:08:35:23: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). |
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687 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:09:55:48: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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688 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:09:58:39: <ais523> btw, I disagree with the topic, in that I believe a language can be sub-TC but still useful |
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689 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:04:32: <ais523> useful means it has a use |
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690 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:04:45: <ais523> e.g. +. BF is inferior in pretty much every way to, say, uuencoded text |
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691 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:04:58: <ais523> which means that it's not that useful |
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692 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:14:44: <ais523> shachaf: I think it's a push-down automaton, and TC if you're allowed to use files |
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693 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:15:33: <ais523> (push-down automaton can be done using register auto variables in a recursive function which contains no non-register auto variables or non-register parameters; because you can't take a pointer to them, there's nothing preventing you having an infinite number of stack frames) |
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694 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:15:34: <shachaf> ais523: There's still a maximum path length, isn't there? |
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695 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:15:44: <ais523> you can store infinite data in one file |
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696 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:16:15: <ais523> yep |
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697 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:16:21: <ais523> or just absolute seeks to 0 each time |
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698 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:16:33: <ais523> hmm, not sure about that one, actually |
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699 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:16:40: <ais523> might be worth creating a simple esolang to test that |
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700 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:17:22: <ais523> let's make it a BF derivative to annoy Phantom_Hoover |
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701 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:17:34: <fizzie> ais523: I don't think anyone really "agrees" with the topic; that's why it is the topic. |
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702 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:17:36: <ais523> let's see… identical to BF, apart from instead of moving one space left, < moves to the start of the tape |
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703 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:17:59: <ais523> itidus20: have you ever tried to write esoprograms? |
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704 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:18:03: <ais523> not languages, programs in them |
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705 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:20:25: <ais523> yep |
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706 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:20:36: <ais523> anyway, I find esoprogramming more useful for learning about esolangs than esolang development |
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707 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:21:54: <ais523> I have new insights less often than I used to |
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708 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:22:00: <ais523> but it sill happens occasionally |
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709 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:22:58: <ais523> I think back-to-start-< BF is TC, actually; you can store two counters in unary on the tape with 1s, separated by a 0, and increment, decrement, and zero-test them independently |
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710 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:24:08: <ais523> *still |
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711 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:26:16: <ais523> that's quite ambitious |
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712 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:26:21: <ais523> are you sure you think in a language at all, though |
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713 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:26:32: <ais523> I'm pretty certain I don't think in English |
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714 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:26:38: <ais523> I can convert my thoughts into English, e.g. to type them |
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715 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:26:57: <ais523> but occasionally I'll start writing a sentence and then realise I don't know all the words in it in English, and get stuck |
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716 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:27:22: <fizzie> ais523: How do you decrement the counter? |
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717 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:27:43: <ais523> [>]+>-[>]- for the first counter |
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718 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:27:49: <ais523> [>]>[>]- for the second counter |
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719 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:28:02: <ais523> (this is starting from the first cell, obviously) |
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720 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:28:12: <ais523> err |
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721 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:28:17: <ais523> no, that makes no sense |
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722 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:28:38: <ais523> I'm tired |
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723 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:28:55: <fizzie> ais523: When you've [>]'d to the separating zero, it sounds like it'd be slightly too late to decrement any more. |
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724 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:28:56: <ais523> fizzie: I guess you need three cuonters |
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725 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:29:11: <ais523> and you always increment at the end and decrement at the start |
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726 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:29:49: <ais523> then, you have (increment first+decrement second), (increment second+decrement third), (increment third) |
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727 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:29:55: <ais523> which gives you complete control over the second and third counters |
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728 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:30:03: <ais523> and the first is just junk |
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729 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:30:54: <ais523> and it still isn't a big seller |
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730 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:38:52: <ais523> hey, anyone here know how you write a literal hyphen in math mode in LaTeX? |
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731 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:38:56: <ais523> or even a literal n-dash would be good |
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732 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:39:01: <ais523> neither \- nor -- works |
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733 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:40:34: <ais523> I want it inside a mathsf, really |
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734 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:40:41: <ais523> textsf, sadly, is not a text-mode version of mathsf |
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735 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:41:04: <ais523> and all the predecessor papers have been naughty and used mathsf for things that are supposed to be interpreted as a single word, not a long multiplication |
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736 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:42:22: <ais523> oh wow, I found it with a search, it's nontrivial |
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737 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:43:24: <ais523> you have to define an escaped-hyphen thing yourself |
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738 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:43:26: <ais523> there we go |
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739 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:10:43:43: <ais523> http://www.logic.at/staff/salzer/etc/mhyphen/ recommends \mathchardef\mhyphen="2D (and it seems to work) |
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740 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:11:54:18: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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741 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:17:59:26: <elliott_> 10:17:34: <fizzie> ais523: I don't think anyone really "agrees" with the topic; that's why it is the topic. |
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742 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:18:01:10: <elliott_> 10:20:25: <ais523> yep |
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743 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-07.txt:18:01:16: <elliott_> trying to fathom how ais523 said yes to a statement this meaningless |
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744 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:31:53: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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745 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:32:06: <elliott_> hi ais523 |
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746 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:32:15: <ais523> hi elliott_ |
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747 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:32:23: <ais523> and what are you doing up at 6:30am? |
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748 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:34:31: <ais523> elliott_: I doubt I'm doing the same thing as you |
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749 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:34:42: <ais523> note that I /joined/ at 6:30am, rather than being here all night as usual |
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750 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:34:44: <ais523> also, I'm at work |
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751 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:35:11: <elliott_> ais523: you're typing on IRC |
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752 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:38:03: <ais523> meanwhile, has anyone thought about Underload with /just/ () and lambdas? |
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753 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:43:06: <ais523> oerjan: you can desugar lambdas into Underload code, right? |
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754 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:43:18: <oerjan> ais523: yes, i wrote a section on that |
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755 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:43:30: <ais523> so, you can express everything but () in terms of lambdas |
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756 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:43:48: <ais523> actually, I also noticed independently that lambdas could be desugared into Underload |
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757 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:44:03: <ais523> but my syntax is x/(y/((x)(y))) |
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758 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:44:24: <ais523> making it postfix is more consistent, but harder to read ;) |
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759 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:44:34: <oerjan> ais523: actually () = [-] in my lambda syntax |
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760 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:44:50: <ais523> yep, I know |
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761 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:45:04: <ais523> I guess most consistent of all would be (code)(variable)command |
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762 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:45:08: <ais523> but that would be almost completely unreadable |
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763 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:46:21: <oerjan> ais523: oh wait no, [-] = |
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764 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:46:40: <ais523> not in my case either |
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765 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:46:47: <ais523> i.e. x/(x) is equivalent to ^ |
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766 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:46:53: <ais523> (and (x/(x)) is equivalent to (^)) |
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767 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:06:49:13: <ais523> the null string would be x/((x)) |
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768 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:18:51: <elliott_> ais523: Should I sleep? |
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769 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:19:01: <ais523> elliott_: I think so :) |
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770 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:19:47: <elliott_> ais523: You're just saying that because I spammed the channel with laughter. :( |
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771 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:20:16: <ais523> inded |
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772 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:20:18: <ais523> *indeed |
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773 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:20:22: <ais523> it's a sign you're tired |
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774 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:21:08: <elliott_> ais523: No way, I spam the channel literally all the time as long as oerjan hasn't spoken in the last fifteen minutes or so. |
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775 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:29:26: <ais523> I find walking out in the morning sunlight helps a lot |
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776 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:29:37: <ais523> I'll typically go for a 1-2 hour walk at 6am or so if I'm awake |
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777 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:29:45: <ais523> although this time I took the bus into work instead |
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778 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:35:16: <elliott_> ok im hold vote pikhq_ Sgeo_ ais523 oerjan zzo38 shachaf |
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779 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:36:48: <ais523> elliott_: yes |
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780 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:37:15: <ais523> elliott_: and my experience when I have a similar sleep cycle is, that it can't be fixed, but it can be temporarily stablised if you need to do so for some reason |
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781 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:37:37: <ais523> I can stabilise mine with two days' setup, for about three days at a time, until I end up feeling really tired |
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782 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:41:30: <elliott_> ais523: shachaf's vote plees |
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783 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:41:47: <ais523> shachaf: should |
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784 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:41:58: <shachaf> ais523: Tell elliott_ I'm no moralist. |
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785 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:42:06: <ais523> elliott_: shachaf says yes ;) |
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786 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:43:15: <ais523> 7-8am is actually a common sort of time for me to go to sleep |
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787 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:43:28: <ais523> and it refreshes me better than sleeping at most other times of day |
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788 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:43:39: <ais523> even if/though it's probably dark when I wake up |
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789 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:07:44:04: <ais523> hmm, it probably will be light when you wake up, though; I predict you wake up at around 4-5pm |
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790 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:12:59: <ais523> zzo38: are you good enough at astrology to answer the question of when someone should go to sleep with it? |
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791 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:13:23: <zzo38> ais523: I think so. But I would require geographical coordinates to do so. |
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792 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:13:40: <ais523> zzo38: Hexham, Northumberland |
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793 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:14:13: <ais523> 54.971N, 2.101W |
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794 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:14:14: <ais523> I just looked it up |
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795 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:18:40: <ais523> hmm, does this mean that everyone in hexham should be awake right now? |
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796 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:21:39: <ais523> fair enough |
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797 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:37:56: <ais523> the one opposite the sun, but I'm not sure what that's called |
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798 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:47:08: <ais523> indeed |
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799 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:53:46: <ais523> possibly, but back then, I think it was a plausible theory to conclude that planets just did that sometimes |
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800 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:54:35: <zzo38> ais523: But shouldn't they try to think of the question, why would they sometimes do that? |
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801 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:55:13: <ais523> there were loads of things people didn't know back then |
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802 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:55:20: <ais523> still are now, but there were more then |
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803 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:08:57:09: <zzo38> ais523: But still, even if you don't know, if you know of retrograde motion, it would seem a reasonable question to ask why they are sometimes retrograde. |
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804 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:09:18:50: <fizzie> ais523: I was under the impression that retrograde motion was solved using those epicycles. |
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805 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:09:19:05: <ais523> oh, right, indeed |
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806 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:09:19:13: <ais523> the problem with epicycles being that they're orbit-complete |
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807 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:09:24:50: <oerjan> ais523: by orbit-complete, do you mean that if you heap enough of them on, you can get _any_ conceivable orbit? |
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808 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:10:12:50: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). |
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809 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:11:39:48: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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810 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:11:51:28: <ais523> hmm, tdwtf sidebar is great, they just taught me that the inverse femtobarn (fb^-1) is a unit that's actually used occasionally for non-ironic purposes |
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811 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:12:17:58: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). |
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812 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:12:28:54: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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813 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:14:42:53: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). |
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814 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:16:07:14: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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815 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:16:34:17: <ais523> hey Phantom_Hoover, I created a BF derivative yesterday |
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816 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:16:34:24: <ais523> although it was in the context of seeing if a certain set of operations was TC |
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817 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:16:34:37: <ais523> it's BF, except that < rewinds to the first element on the tape rather than moving one square |
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818 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:35:18: <elliott> 07:44:04: <ais523> hmm, it probably will be light when you wake up, though; I predict you wake up at around 4-5pm |
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819 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:35:27: <elliott> ais523: 4:30 pm or so, so yep |
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820 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:37:32: <elliott> ais523: yay, another legitimate user passed the captcha |
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821 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:37:45: <elliott> ais523: which means legitimate users are now tied with spammers for passing the registration captchas |
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822 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:38:56: <elliott> ais523: why is Ytommyro93i not in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Log/newusers? |
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823 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:54:52: <ais523> elliott: did you merge them with deleted spam user? |
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824 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:55:45: <elliott> ais523: no |
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825 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:17:55:51: <ais523> also, are you feeling good/bad about when you woke up? |
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826 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:05:20: <ais523> btw, anyone know why Slashdot sometimes interprets <i> as <blockquote>? |
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827 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:08:22: <ais523> I would laugh so much if that was the reason |
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828 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:08:31: <ais523> *that were |
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829 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:08:37: <ais523> because apparently being tired makes me pedantic |
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830 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:11:13: <ais523> I'm wondering if they used to italicise quotes by default |
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831 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:11:25: <ais523> then decided to do an s/<i>/<blockquote>/g on their database |
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832 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:11:37: <ais523> to make them blockquotes instead |
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833 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:11:47: <ais523> ISTR that too |
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834 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:11:58: <ais523> and apparently they did it even in the middle of a sentence |
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835 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:15:55: <ais523> I don't wrap manually |
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836 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:16:00: <ais523> except when my browser does it for me |
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837 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:16:05: * ais523 glares at SunOS Mozilla |
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838 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:17:15: <ais523> because it was a choice of SunOS and Windows and I was trying to run POSIXy stuff |
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839 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:17:19: <ais523> (including but not limited to C-INTERCAL) |
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840 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:17:41: * ais523 suspects that this answer is less stupid than elliott might have been discussing |
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841 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:01: <ais523> wait, is there seriously a major push to name it something other than [[Abortion]]? or is this about subarticles? |
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842 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:16: <elliott> ais523: "The Arbitration Committee has requested a binding, structured community discussion on the article titles "Support for the legalization of abortion" and "Opposition to the legalization of abortion"." |
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843 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:39: <ais523> so typical of Wikipedia |
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844 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:46: <ais523> also, hmm at [[absurd brainfuck]] |
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845 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:46: <elliott> ais523: prediction: half the people want "Support for the continued illegality of abortion" and "Opposition to the continued illegality of abortion" |
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846 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:50: <ais523> does that article even make sense at all? |
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847 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:18:55: <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/absurd_brainfuck |
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848 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:19:54: <ais523> I mean, OK, TwoDucks is uncomputable, but it has nicely and precisely defined semantics, even if they're unimplementable |
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849 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:20:00: <ais523> Absurd BF doesn't mean anything |
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850 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:20:35: <ais523> oh, right |
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851 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:20:47: <ais523> I should really put a caps redirect in my autolinker, but I can't be bothered |
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852 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:21:14: <ais523> (there's an URL construction scheme that goes to the article verbatim if it exists, the name in various other cases if it doesn't, and the search page if none of those do) |
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853 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:21:24: <ais523> (it's intended for use by the Go button) |
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854 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:25:02: -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). |
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855 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:25:49: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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856 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:25:54: <ais523> <ais523> you mean magnifying glass, not hourglass, right? |
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857 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:35:13: <ais523> it's more similar to "wikify" |
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858 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:35:24: <ais523> but there's a content change too (if a trivial correction) |
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859 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:41:24: <ais523> it might almost be a good idea if it made some sort of sense |
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860 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:41:31: <ais523> but it doesn't |
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861 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:44:55: <elliott> ais523: realisation: I think I took down the sitenotice ~1 day before cpressey visited the wiki for the first time in months :D |
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862 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:45:17: <ais523> oerjan: Haskell has a reverse state monad? |
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863 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:45:23: <ais523> I can, umm, sort of see how that would work |
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864 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:45:29: <ais523> but not think of any applications for it |
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865 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:46:41: <ais523> bleh, mindfuck is a different thing from brainfuck and minscrew? |
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866 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:47:57: <ais523> *mindscrew |
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867 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:48:44: <ais523> <Andrew> I just googled “state monad simple example” and this link cropped up. |
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868 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:52:48: <elliott> ais523: wait, presumably the reason that user isn't in the creation log is because they /already existed/ |
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869 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:18:52:58: <ais523> that's a plausible enough explanation |
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870 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:12:16: <ais523> meanwhile, Slashdot are busy arguing about whether the recent claim someone's made to have produced a 230% efficient LED are sane or not |
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871 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:12:49: <ais523> the argument is that actually it's an electrically-powered heat pump, that converts ambient heat to light, and more such heat than the electrical input |
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872 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:13:02: <ais523> quite a few commentors are suggesting connecting the thing to a solar panel to see what happens… |
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873 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:13:43: <ais523> indeed, but that's doable with modern technology, I think |
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874 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:13:51: <ais523> oerjan: no, it needs an energy source |
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875 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:14:02: <ais523> heat pumps create a temperature difference and consume energy to do so |
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876 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:14:18: <ais523> now, there is an energy source (the electricity), but it's less than the amount of heat pumped… |
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877 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:15:30: <ais523> elliott: you know what you should /actually/ do instead, right? |
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878 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:20:17: <ais523> oh, btw, I had an awesome esolang idea in a dream weeks ago, and now can't remember most of it |
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879 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:20:30: <ais523> (note that as I had it in a dream, it may not follow the rules of logic, or fail to make any sense for other reasons) |
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880 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:20:44: <ais523> but I remember that the main concept was that there was only one program, which was a physical obect |
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881 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:20:45: <ais523> *object |
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882 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:20:59: <ais523> and you programmed in it by physically travelling elsewhere in the world so that you were looking at it from a different perspective |
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883 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:21:02: <oerjan> ais523: hey it could still be better than most on the wiki |
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884 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:21:03: <ais523> which changed what it meant |
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885 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:21:59: <ais523> wow, now I'm laughing out load at that for some reason |
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886 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:22:40: <ais523> well, both |
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887 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:22:47: <ais523> elliott: fractal |
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888 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:22:57: <ais523> it helps if you know the object that oerjan's describing |
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889 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:23:05: <ais523> now I'm wondering if any of the things have ever been made? |
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890 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:23:27: <ais523> olsner: arguably, constraint-based programming does that |
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891 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:23:34: <ais523> oklopol-Clue, Proud, etc |
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892 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:24:09: <olsner> ais523: oh, that's kind of what I was thinking about yes... sounds boring :( |
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893 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:25:02: <ais523> now I want one of those, but I bet they're really expensive |
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894 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:25:15: <ais523> and I'd have nowhere to put it |
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895 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:25:51: <ais523> btw, I think it's theoretically possible to have a (fractal) digital sundial that shows the date too (not the year, though) |
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896 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:26:18: <ais523> I have the feeling that they aren't made very much for that reason |
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897 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:26:59: <oerjan> ais523: i recall discussing that previously and concluding that there must be days in the spring that cannot be distinguished from days in the autumn |
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898 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:27:23: <ais523> fizzie: I just found that |
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899 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:27:31: <ais523> €91 is more than I'm willing to pay for a digital sundial |
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900 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:27:42: <ais523> it's in the range of things that I could afford, but more than the value I put on one |
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901 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:29:56: <ais523> elliott: why does that surprise you? |
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902 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:30:06: <elliott> ais523: it doesn't, just worries |
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903 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:30:17: <ais523> it was probably inevitable, wasn't it? |
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904 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:30:28: <elliott> ais523: :( |
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905 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:31:39: <ais523> elliott: I don't even think he's intentionally shilling |
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906 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:32:13: <ais523> and nah, ANKOS introduced me to a bunch of paradigms I wouldn't know existed otherwise |
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907 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:32:28: <ais523> admittedly I had to find more reliable sources about them, but just knowing they exist is good |
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908 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:34:05: <ais523> Friendship: you just made that up, right? still, it's great |
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909 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:34:22: <ais523> also, this probably means it's quite easy to determine his password if you know where to look… |
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910 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:36:34: <ais523> elliott: you know the Star Trek-related link that you wikified? |
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911 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:36:39: <ais523> are you sure it's not actually human-added spam? |
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912 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:36:57: <ais523> an attempt to add a specific link in an attempt to make it look ontopic? |
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913 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:37:19: <elliott> ais523: 90% sure or so |
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914 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:37:29: <ais523> Friendship: not the Wikipedia link |
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915 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:37:31: <ais523> the external |
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916 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:37:57: <ais523> but it's not "Spock's Brain", which is famously the worst Star Wars episode ever |
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917 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:38:22: <ais523> err, Start Trek |
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918 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:38:26: <ais523> *Star Trek |
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919 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:39:11: <ais523> ah, OK |
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920 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:39:20: <elliott> ais523: also, the user who added it isn't an IP |
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921 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:39:38: <ais523> I guess I'm just used to Wikipedia trolls who came up with really complex and sophisticated methods of spamming that are about on a level of what I've been describing |
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922 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:39:58: <ais523> not for any obvious reason, either |
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923 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:41:11: <elliott> ais523: [[List of ideas]] is weirdly WardsWikiish |
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924 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:41:37: <ais523> I like that |
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925 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:41:54: <ais523> people should use that style of wiki more often |
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926 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:42:19: <ais523> strangely enough, Talk pages often end up like that on Wikipedia |
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927 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:42:34: <ais523> especially if they're being periodically refactored but everyone but the person refactoring is ignoring the refactoring |
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928 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:42:42: <ais523> (as in, not reverting it, just not respecting the fact it's happened) |
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929 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:50:36: <elliott> ais523: I think it might have been Chaitin who wrote that Lisp interpreter. |
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930 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:51:06: <ais523> elliott: that rings a bell |
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931 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:51:14: <ais523> although I wouldn't have got it without the reminder, I think |
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932 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:52:01: <ais523> yes |
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933 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:52:11: <ais523> this was almost a problem in my research a couple of years back |
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934 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:52:38: <ais523> it took me some work to prove that the suspiciously diophantine-equation-like set of inequalities I had was actually decidable |
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935 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:53:03: <ais523> and equations concerning polynomials on multiple variables, all of which are integers |
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936 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:53:15: <ais523> olsner: go swat elliott for me, will you? |
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937 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:53:26: <ais523> err, oerjan: |
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938 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:53:49: <oerjan> ais523: i cannot do that, it was entrapment |
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939 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:53:59: <ais523> OK, olsner, you swat him then |
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940 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:19:54:07: <ais523> actually |
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941 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:09:10: <elliott> <ais523> OK, olsner, you swat him then |
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942 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:15:24: <ais523> ooh, apparently I've been on Reddit for a year, for the nearest day |
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943 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:16:30: <ais523> ooh, I got 16 comment karma for pointing out a respect in which Emacs and Eclipse were equally good, in the middle of what was becoming an editor war |
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944 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:16:42: <ais523> presumably, because claiming that they're equally good at something doesn't annoy fanboys of either side |
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945 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:17:12: <ais523> well, it was correcting an implication made by the parent comment |
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946 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:18:04: <ais523> oh, the single comment that gave me the /most/ karma was for bashing PHP, but it still wasn't very much |
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947 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:18:08: <ais523> after that, for bashing VHDL |
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948 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:18:55: <ais523> were you? |
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949 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:20:22: <ais523> someone here got over 1000 karma from one comment, IIRC |
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950 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:20:28: <ais523> but I forget who or why |
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951 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:20:35: <ais523> hmm, what's the single highest-rated comment on Reddit ever, I wonder? |
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952 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:21:57: <ais523> oh right |
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953 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:22:03: <ais523> was it first post ever, or something? |
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954 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:22:32: <ais523> oh, right |
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955 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:22:35: <ais523> who's qgyh2? |
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956 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:23:08: <ais523> there's something weirdly circular about upvoting someone because they have high karma |
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957 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:23:17: <ais523> and, umm, what's the picture (and is it SFW)? |
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958 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:23:46: <ais523> well, it's in r/pics |
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959 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:24:01: <ais523> so I assumed the post was at least vaguely ontopic |
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960 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:24:08: <ais523> not the comment itself, but the post it was attached to |
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961 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:24:33: <elliott> ais523: oh, and it was a self-post, so he got no karma for it :) |
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962 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:24:35: <ais523> oh, it's a test /post/, not test comment? |
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963 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:24:45: <ais523> also, why aren't self-posts worth karma? |
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964 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:25:16: <elliott> ais523: because "UPVOTE IF DSKLSDJFLKSDFJ;" and all that kind of shit are self-posts |
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965 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:25:43: <ais523> surely making them worth karma would encourage people not to upvote them? |
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966 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:26:12: <ais523> btw, highly-rated YouTube comments are often hilariously insightful parodies of the whole YouTube comment thing |
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967 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:26:27: <ais523> well, by /YouTube/ standards |
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968 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:26:28: <elliott> ais523: no, people upvote them no matter what, because reddit is full of idiots |
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969 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:26:44: <ais523> hmm, right |
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970 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:26:48: <ais523> I mostly stay confined to proggit |
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971 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:27:02: <ais523> and occasionally r/nethack, if we're trying to do an announcement there |
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972 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:30:02: <ais523> elliott: proggit's comments are typically low-quality but there are frequently high-quality ones there too |
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973 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:30:18: <ais523> although that's more pronounced in Slashdot, which almost always eventually ends up with a few excellent comments |
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974 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:38:30: <ais523> elliott: I thought of your roguelike too |
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975 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:38:36: <ais523> it isn't, but what it is is actually moderately interesting |
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976 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:20:57:17: <ais523> ooh, now we can run it in the JS interp that's embedded in PHP! |
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977 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:21:00:38: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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978 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:22:25:15: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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979 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-08.txt:23:15:52: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). |
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980 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:51:30: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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981 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:54:13: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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982 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:54:27: <ais523> hi Phantom_Hoover |
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983 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:54:35: * Phantom_Hoover remembers that period where he thought ais523 was a mathematician. |
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984 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:54:43: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was! |
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985 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:54:45: <ais523> I just amn't any more |
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986 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:20:55:24: <ais523> is there such a concept? |
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987 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:04:40: <Phantom_Hoover> And doesn't ais523 research formally-verified compilers? |
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988 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:05:02: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not really; I do prove that the algorithms behind the compilers are correct |
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989 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:05:13: <ais523> but I don't prove that the compilers that are intended to follow those algorithms actually do |
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990 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:05:18: <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, which is hardly more "pure" than proving $theorem is correct. |
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991 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:07:05: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: would you call this a pure maths result?: given a set of equalities/inequalities, each of which is of one of the forms (a = b, a <= b, a <= b+c, a <= b*c), and all the unknowns are known to be nonnegative integers, it is decidable whether a given set has a solution or not |
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992 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:07:56: <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, TbH, pure maths is a pretty useless concept; I was joking before. |
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993 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:08:25: <ais523> you didn't answer my question |
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994 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:10:40: <ais523> elliott: "foundations" = ? |
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995 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:10:52: <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, logic. |
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996 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:11:09: <ais523> well, I'm pretty happy that linear and affine logic were invented |
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997 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:11:17: <ais523> or Verity probably wouldn't exist |
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998 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:11:18: <elliott> ais523: logic, set theory, type theory, etc. |
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999 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:11:31: <ais523> yep |
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1000 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:11:41: <ais523> I'm not convinced that they're useless at all |
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1001 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:15:10: <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, they're obviously very useful, because you can't build without foundations, and they're interesting in their own right; I (personally) don't enjoy studying them as much as other things, but elliott seems to be veering towards declaring that they're the One True Path. |
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1002 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:58:06: <ais523> one of the best reasons to use Perl |
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1003 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:21:58:14: <ais523> because it has libraries that nothing else has |
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1004 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-09.txt:23:24:15: <ais523> oh, I've known about it for a while |
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1005 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:00:11:51: <oklofok> ais523: what else do you know that you've been holding out on me? |
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1006 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:00:12:10: <ais523> oklofok: err, I don't know |
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1007 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:00:17:45: <ais523> oklofok: one thing I've been wondering about is if CBPV and Underload are equivalent or not (allowing for the difference in typedness) |
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1008 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:00:17:55: <ais523> I think CBPV embeds in Underload, but not trivially the other way round |
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1009 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:00:26:26: <ais523> I know what you mean |
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1010 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:00:26:36: <ais523> partly because my supervisor keeps thinking things are relevant when they aren't |
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1011 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:01:15:11: <elliott> ais523: what's context for? |
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1012 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:01:15:25: <ais523> elliott: ? |
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1013 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:01:15:31: <ais523> oh, I see |
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1014 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:01:15:36: <oklofok> ais523: it's one more than the previous |
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1015 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:03:07:50: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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1016 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:03:07:59: <ais523> hi elliott |
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1017 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:03:30:31: <elliott> even ais523 thinks it's meaningless, and he invented Feather |
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1018 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:09:58:24: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1019 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:17:35:34: <elliott> @ask ais523 What is our policy on modifying your own talk page comments days after they were posted? If we don't have one, make one up. |
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1020 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:00:06: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1021 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:00:25: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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1022 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:00:28: <ais523> hi elliott |
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1023 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:00:29: <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. |
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1024 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:01:08: <ais523> @messages |
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1025 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:01:34: <ais523> elliott: it's OK as long as you aren't misleading people as to the context of replies to those comments |
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1026 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:02:52: <elliott> ais523: even for substantial additions over the course of days? |
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1027 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:03:24: <ais523> if the comments haven't been replied to, I don't see a problem |
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1028 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:21:03:27: <ais523> although you should probably bump the timestamp |
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1029 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:22:45:33: <elliott> ais523: Did you know that dependent type systems are improper? |
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1030 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:22:45:53: <ais523> hmm, I don't see why they can't use type inference to some extent |
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1031 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:22:46:10: <ais523> sure, it's undecidable, but that doesn't mean that you can't infer when it /is/ decidable and leave the program to annotate the tricky bits |
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1032 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-10.txt:22:46:25: <ais523> oh, and ADTs are totally a type system feature (pattern matching isn't) |
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1033 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:00:06:40: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1034 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:07:43:23: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1035 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:04:34: <ais523> hey, it's Sunday, isn't it? |
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1036 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:04:45: <ais523> I thought it was Monday, I'm at work at the moment |
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1037 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:04:48: <ais523> because of that |
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1038 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:04:52: <ais523> and I was wondering why there was nobody here |
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1039 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:13:04: <shadwick> ais523: for eodermdrome, if a command has an input set, would it get a char from stdin, check it against the input set, then check if the match graph is a subgraph of the state? or should it check if the match is a subgraph before consuming input and continuing |
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1040 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:13:14: <shadwick> ais523: just reading this eodermdrome page |
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1041 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:13:41: <ais523> shadwick: it only consumes input if it matches, IIRC |
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1042 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:14:05: <ais523> as in, matches the input set too |
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1043 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:14:16: <ais523> if the input isn't in the input set, it isn't consumed even if the subgraph matches |
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1044 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:16:09: <shadwick> ais523: ok cool, and one more question: the ascii art graph uses pipes to connect the nodes, and the nice "initial state" picture uses single headed arrows.. are the edges one-way/directed? |
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1045 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:16:24: <ais523> no, they're undirected |
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1046 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:17:43: <ais523> it's hard to figure out how to do it efficiently |
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1047 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:17:53: <ais523> although IIRC oklopol tried; I can't remember if he succeeded |
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1048 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:46:45: <ais523> ESME!!!!!!!!! |
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1049 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:46:46: <ais523> your turn |
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1050 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:09:53:25: <ais523> I seem to remember that the Dagoth at Esolang has the comma in a different place from the Dagoth in Morrowind |
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1051 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:07:10: <shadwick> ais523: I don't see how the example bitwise cyclic tag interpreter code for eodermdrome should work out.. the first move leaves us with the graph "miewehit" and no other actions' math graphs are subgraphs of that |
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1052 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:09:10: <ais523> let's see… miewehit has a triangle (formed by ieh), once of whose corners is connected to two degree-one nodes, one of whose corners is connected to one degree-one node |
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1053 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:09:15: <ais523> note that the letters aren't part of the graph itself |
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1054 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:10:22: <shadwick> ais523: k thanks. I'm trying to look into this more |
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1055 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:11:06: <ais523> and byanad buguramat requires a degree-at-least-3 node connected to two degree-exactly-one nodes, and to be connected by a degree-exactly-two node to any other node |
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1056 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:11:41: <ais523> so the (1) and (0) lines should both match the initial state |
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1057 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:12:34: <shadwick> ais523: ok I think I see what you mean. I just gotta draw this stuff out haha |
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1058 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:12:58: <ais523> shadwick: there are some ASCII art drawings linked from the article, might save you the trouble |
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1059 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:14:46: <shadwick> ais523: hah I've gotta read the Wiki article on Graph isomorphism now as well. I'm not very well versed in this stuff at all |
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1060 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:15:08: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's funnier as a redlink |
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1061 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:15:12: <ais523> graue: link? |
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1062 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:10:16:47: <graue> ais523: hold on, i made a slight modification to make it shorter |
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1063 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-11.txt:14:35:20: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1064 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:06:11:56: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1065 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:06:12:22: <Lindrum> Hi ais523 |
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1066 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:06:13:14: <ais523> hi Lindrum |
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1067 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:12:18:36: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1068 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:12:19:47: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1069 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:13:14:18: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). |
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1070 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:13:15:05: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1071 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:14:40:52: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). |
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1072 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:16:05:10: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1073 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:16:15:54: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). |
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1074 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:17:24:11: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1075 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:19:36:23: <ais523> wow, http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html is really out of date |
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1076 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:19:36:41: <ais523> it mentions GPLv3, but most of its comments about other licenses are written from the point of view of a world where GPLv3 doesn't exit |
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1077 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:19:36:43: <ais523> *exist |
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1078 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:19:36:59: <ais523> e.g. calling 4-clause BSD GPL-incompatible (it is compatible with v3 but not v2) |
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1079 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:09:00: <ais523> myndzi isn't here |
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1080 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:23:11: <elliott> ais523: ugh, ping |
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1081 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:23:22: <ais523> elliott: pong |
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1082 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:23:27: <ais523> why the ping? why the ugh? |
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1083 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:40:53: <ais523> elliott: insane opinion: all websites should be dark-text-on-light-background, so that when I prefer the reverse, I can just reverse-video the entire browser rather than changing for individual pages |
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1084 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:43:15: <ais523> why backup just the names? |
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1085 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:43:50: <ais523> err, typically the file contents are more important than the file names |
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1086 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:43:59: <ais523> if the file isn't redownloadable |
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1087 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:44:26: <ais523> itidus21: there are quite a few files I have that aren't stored online anywhere |
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1088 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:44:29: <ais523> that's what backups are /for/ |
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1089 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:46:33: <elliott> ais523: why are you arguing with the debate equivalent of fungot |
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1090 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:20:47:20: <ais523> elliott: because I don't pay enough attention to figure out personalities of people unless I've talked to them really lots |
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1091 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-12.txt:21:16:51: -!- ais523 has quit (). |
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1092 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:17:19:42: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1093 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:17:41:11: <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: it's capitalised "OCaml", which would have worked just as well |
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1094 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:17:41:27: <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Yeah, I realized that too late. |
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1095 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:55:17: <ais523> elliott: hmm, well it was intended as a joke… |
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1096 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:55:21: <ais523> this is as bad as the esolang/not esolang thing |
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1097 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:55:27: <ais523> I'd prefer to categorise it as nonjoke, though |
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1098 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:56:16: <elliott> ais523: we seem to treat direct brainfuck ciphers as joke languages |
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1099 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:56:26: <elliott> ais523: btw, did you hear that someone wrote an underload self-interp? |
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1100 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:57:00: <ais523> elliott: you mean, not the ()^ joke one? |
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1101 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:57:06: <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard |
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1102 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:57:22: <ais523> in fact, it should be pretty easy |
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1103 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:19:57:22: <elliott> ais523: yep |
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1104 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:03:46: <elliott> ais523: hey, is it possible to do a map over every parameter in mediawiki? |
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1105 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:04:11: <ais523> not as far as I know, unless you know all the possible parameter names, and only then via the stupidest form of iteration |
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1106 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:04:38: <ais523> I seem to remember the devs yelling at the authors of {{for}}, too |
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1107 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:04:46: <elliott> ais523: hmm... what do templates that take arbitrary amounts of data do, then? oh, hmm, perhaps I can achieve this with X-Macros |
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1108 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:04:48: <ais523> because it produced too much server load, or something |
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1109 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:04:57: <ais523> elliott: they cap at an arbitrary number |
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1110 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:05:00: <ais523> and yes, it does |
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1111 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:05:08: <ais523> this is the usual way to do large hash tables |
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1112 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:05:29: <ais523> err, yes |
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1113 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:05:33: <ais523> where are you going with this? |
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1114 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:05:40: <elliott> ais523: trying to generate the [[EsoInterpreters]] table |
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1115 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:11:16: <elliott> ais523: hmm, I have a feeling this may need more template metaprogramming than mediawiki can support |
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1116 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:11:42: <ais523> this is usual |
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1117 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:15:36: <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ehird/sandbox/data&action=edit |
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1118 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:37:25: <ais523> plainlinks gets rid of the external link arrow on external links, right? |
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1119 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:38:46: <elliott> ais523: right |
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1120 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:52:11: <ais523> eot the llI (best viewed in a font where l and I look much the same) |
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1121 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:57:17: <ais523> hmm, all the known diff algorithms seem to be O(n^2) worst case |
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1122 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:57:24: <ais523> so why does diff not take ages in practice? |
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1123 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:58:32: <ais523> the worst case seems pretty plausible in practice, though |
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1124 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:20:58:44: <ais523> (one small change near the start, one small change near the end, arbitrary changes elsewhere) |
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1125 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:01:39: <fizzie> ais523: Do the tools actually guarantee optimal diffs, though? They could just be using windows of reasonable size. |
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1126 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:02:35: <ais523> fizzie: I was wondering about that |
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1127 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:02:40: <ais523> but this algo doesn't seem to have a concept of a window |
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1128 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:03:06: * ais523 gets diffutils source |
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1129 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:04:57: <fizzie> ais523: If it's the dynamic-programming tabular thing, I think you can retrofit a window into it by restricting things on the "diagonal" (+ fiddling), though I haven't thought this through. |
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1130 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:07:02: <ais523> I was basing it on the dynamic programming algo in Wikipedia |
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1131 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:07:54: <ais523> hmm, I'd need a good academic library to get copies of those |
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1132 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:07:59: <ais523> I have access to one, but not right now |
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1133 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:10:25: <ais523> elliott: meh, I can almost certainly access it legally if I just wait until tomorrow |
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1134 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:17:40: <fizzie> ais523: Also to finish the quotation, "The algorithm was independently discovered as described in "Algorithms for Approximate String Matching", E. Ukkonen, Information and Control Vol. 64, 1985, pp. 100-118.". I think I've read that, or at least some string paper by Ukkonen. |
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1135 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:18:20: <ais523> fizzie: finnish names are reasonably recognizable; I know a few from following Formula 1 |
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1136 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:19:40: <elliott> ais523: Too bad they never reach the Finnish line. |
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1137 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:20:20: <ais523> elliott: I know that was a bad joke, but IIRC there have been Finnish Formula 1 world champions |
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1138 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:20:23: <ais523> at least one, anyway |
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1139 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:21:04: <ais523> nor do I nowadays, although I used to |
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1140 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:24:08: <ais523> fizzie: hmm, people never write the accents on their names in the UK |
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1141 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:24:14: <ais523> not even on the official commentary thing |
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1142 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:24:18: <ais523> is it usual to omit them in Finland too? |
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1143 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:29:57: <ais523> elliott: if you're going to troll fizzie, at least make it vaguely good trolling |
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1144 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:30:11: <elliott> ais523: This is pretty good by Finnish standards!!! |
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1145 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:44:08: <elliott> ais523: Did you know that Memory Alpha's main page is [[Portal:Main]]? |
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1146 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:44:20: <ais523> yay! |
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1147 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:44:34: <elliott> ais523: On the other hand, it's a Wikia. |
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1148 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:44:55: <ais523> indeed |
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1149 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:46:16: <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: Next Generation here refers to the Star Trek series? |
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1150 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:46:22: <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Yes. |
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1151 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:46:42: <ais523> and it sounds like the worst of all possible good ideas, to me |
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1152 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:47:52: <ais523> (well, no, it doesn't, I just wanted to say that) |
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1153 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:21:55:45: <ais523> clearly an LP that can be flipped around couldn't possibly evolve, because what use would it be to have half a song on the other side? |
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1154 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:00:27: <ais523> what time zone offset is PST? |
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1155 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:01:06: <ais523> trying to make sense of this Azure timezone bug |
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1156 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:01:18: <ais523> oh, UTC-8 |
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1157 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:01:51: <elliott> ais523: they had another datetime bug? |
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1158 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:01:53: <fizzie> ais523: Pacific or Philippines? Both use the same abbreviation. |
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1159 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:02:00: <ais523> elliott: no, the feb 29 one |
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1160 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:02:06: <ais523> fizzie: doesn't say, but I'm guessing Pacific from context |
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1161 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:02:32: <fizzie> ais523: PST was featured prominently in that horrible "round to midnight" discussion #esoteric had. |
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1162 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:03:15: <ais523> oh dear |
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1163 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:17:14: <elliott> ais523: hey, you're good at proving things sub-TC, right? |
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1164 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:17:38: <ais523> elliott: moderately good |
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1165 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:17:41: <elliott> ais523: excellent |
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1166 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:17:48: <ais523> although don't mention something like Dupdog or Xigxag, I don't have a clue with those |
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1167 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:18:53: <elliott> ais523: well, I want to design a language like self-BCT or Clue (Keymaker), except even simpler |
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1168 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:19:19: <ais523> hmm, I hate TC proofs for those sorts of languages |
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1169 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:20:05: * RocketJSquirrel hands ais523 an onion bagel with sour cream and caramel sauce. |
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1170 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:20:53: <ais523> elliott: and the reverse :) |
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1171 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:36:37: <elliott> ais523: hmm, is it actually possible for admins to see deleted revisions of images? |
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1172 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:22:36:54: <ais523> not sure; it used not to be, but that mat have changed |
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1173 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:36:33: <fizzie> ais523: Speaking of nothing at all (but web'o'flies ~~ strace), I heard resize2fs breaks down if you try to run it under strace. |
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1174 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:40:05: <ais523> fizzie: weird; why would an ext2 resizer break under strace? |
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1175 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:40:22: <ais523> only thing I can think of is that it has timing-sensitive critical sections, or something |
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1176 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:40:38: <ais523> perhaps it should be impossible to ptrace a process at realtime priority |
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1177 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:41:17: <fizzie> ais523: "Reads from disk normally are never short except in the case of disk |
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1178 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:41:59: <ais523> I don't see why strace would cause short reads |
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1179 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:42:46: <ais523> elliott: that won't fit into 510 characters when we run the rewrite script! |
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1180 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:43:13: <ais523> (note: the @ log rewrite script necessarily has to be AI-complete, given the job we're trying to get it to do; it has to delete this line, for instance) |
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1181 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:44:28: <elliott> ais523: no, no |
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1182 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:44:38: <elliott> ais523: it is not the rewrite script's problem if you said nonsense in 2012. |
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1183 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:44:59: <ais523> elliott: doesn't it have to hide the fact it existed? |
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1184 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-13.txt:23:45:55: <fizzie> ais523: It was in the context of attaching strace to a running process; maybe that could interrupt a read? |
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1185 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:05:22: <ais523> elliott: Wikipedia used a stock timespan parser from somewhere, which has a bunch of joke features |
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1186 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:17:45: <ais523> `frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 plancktime -> "weeks" |
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1187 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:17:49: <ais523> what's with the quotes at the end? |
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1188 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:18:06: <ais523> `frink 1 week -> "plancktime" |
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1189 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:18:18: <pikhq_> ais523: Quotes tell frink to just display the unit at the end... |
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1190 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:18:31: <ais523> `frink 1 week -> plancktime |
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1191 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:18:51: <ais523> oh, changes whether the unit's displayed |
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1192 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:18:53: <ais523> that's weird |
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1193 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:31:00: <ais523> annoying VHDL feature: it doesn't allow __ in a variable name, compilers enforce this |
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1194 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:31:21: <ais523> what sane reason is there to ban __ inside variable names? so that it can safely be used as a separator in name mangling rather than using length prefixes? |
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1195 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:31:38: <ais523> elliott: normally you ban a prefix for that |
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1196 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:31:44: <ais523> not something that can be put anywhere inside the name |
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1197 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:31:56: <ais523> (fwiw, my Verity compiler uses leading 0 on internal use names, as names can't normally start with a digit) |
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1198 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:35:15: <elliott> ais523: why do you need internal names? |
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1199 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:35:35: <ais523> elliott: stuff generated by desugaring, mostly |
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1200 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:35:49: <elliott> ais523: that means you're doing it wrong :( |
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1201 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:35:51: <ais523> also, one of the keywords ("export") works by generating a variable behind the scenes ("00export") |
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1202 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:36:03: <ais523> elliott: well, the resulting variables have to be called something in the VHDL code! |
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1203 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:37:34: <ais523> elliott: we try to let the user's variable names get all the way through into the generated code |
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1204 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:37:43: <ais523> partly this is so that the linker works, partly it's to make things easier to debug |
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1205 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:38:54: <elliott> ais523: I didn't disagree with that |
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1206 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:39:14: <ais523> so this means that when extra variables are added, they need names too |
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1207 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:42:08: <ais523> this is variables in the functional programming sense |
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1208 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:42:36: <ais523> so here's a problem for you: suppose you have the following code: f(x;x); f(x||x) |
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1209 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:42:43: <ais523> err, I don't mean that |
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1210 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:42:50: <ais523> f(\x.x;x); f(\x.x||x) |
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1211 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:42:59: <ais523> now, the two arguments to f don't have compatible signatures |
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1212 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:43:16: <ais523> err, you have it backwards; a "name" is kind-of like a pointer or a reference |
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1213 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:43:38: <ais523> computer science has a whole load of widely-defined terms |
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1214 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:43:42: <ais523> you can't just redefine them at random! |
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1215 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:43:49: <ais523> "name" in Algol-like languages is like a reference |
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1216 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:44:19: <ais523> so this needs to be desugared into f(\x1.\x2.x1;x1); f(\x1.\x2.x1||x2) |
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1217 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:44:31: <ais523> (the first throws away x2) |
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1218 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:45:15: <ais523> elliott: now, suppose I do f(\x.x;x); f(\x.x||x); f(g) |
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1219 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:45:20: <ais523> and g has the same type as \x.x;x |
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1220 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:45:37: <ais523> oh wait, in that case I can change g to \j.g or whatever |
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1221 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:45:56: <ais523> oh, still works, I need to invent a fresh name for the lambda that's put around g |
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1222 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:46:01: <ais523> in your terminology |
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1223 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:46:15: <ais523> so I get f(\x1.\x2.x1;x1); f(\x1.\x2.x1||x2); f(\j.g) |
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1224 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:46:35: <ais523> nah, it goes from one language to a slightly different one |
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1225 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:47:04: <ais523> elliott: anyway, the \j.g /goes through to the final hardware/ |
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1226 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:47:10: <ais523> you can identify the individual wires that make up j |
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1227 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:47:16: <ais523> and they need names |
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1228 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:47:38: <ais523> well, they need names in the VHDL code |
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1229 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:47:54: <ais523> VHDL doesn't let you have wires that don't have names |
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1230 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:48:00: <elliott> ais523: that's the backend's problem |
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1231 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:48:08: <ais523> but I wrote the backend too! |
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1232 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:48:22: <ais523> you think I should generate the arbitrary names, which are different from all existing names, in the backend rather than frontend? |
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1233 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:48:30: <ais523> I don't see how that would modify the problem at all |
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1234 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:49:02: <ais523> but then I wouldn't have them the same in the final VHDL program as the original user's prorgam |
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1235 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:49:03: <ais523> *program |
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1236 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:49:16: <ais523> (mangled, there's an s/_/0_0/g and a suffix to preserve case-sensitivity) |
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1237 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:50:12: <ais523> elliott: you also have to allow for the problem that such graphs aren't easily represented with ADTs |
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1238 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:50:19: <ais523> and the most common way to do so is /to give the nodes arbitrary names/ |
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1239 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:50:23: <ais523> so you're not even gaining anything |
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1240 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:51:19: <ais523> I must stop asking you for advice :) |
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1241 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:51:25: <ais523> how's your own Verity compiler/interp getting on? |
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1242 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:52:00: <ais523> ouch, that seems /really/ out of character for you |
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1243 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:52:25: <ais523> either way |
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1244 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:53:53: <ais523> problems with school, or something like that? |
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1245 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:54:30: <ais523> not even a Verity compiler? ;) |
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1246 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:54:42: <ais523> I thought you wanted to write one with a less insane license |
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1247 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:54:51: <ais523> and you presumably wouldn't be targeting hardware, so no need for SCC transforms, etc |
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1248 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:55:23: <ais523> yes; also, we've already settled on such a list, haven't we? |
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1249 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:55:32: <ais523> BF, Befunge, INTERCAL, Unlambda, Underload |
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1250 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:55:35: <ais523> did I miss one? |
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1251 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:56:08: <ais523> well, hm |
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1252 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:56:18: <ais523> we'd really want to show off all corners of esolang design |
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1253 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:56:29: <ais523> there are some missing genres there, e.g. we'd want a thematic language |
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1254 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:56:31: <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: good point |
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1255 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:56:34: <ais523> preferably a /good/ one |
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1256 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:56:43: <ais523> Shakespeare or Chef or Haifu or something like that |
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1257 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:58:15: <ais523> Befunge is not a language that takes well to derivatices |
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1258 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:58:18: <ais523> *derivatives |
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1259 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:58:22: <ais523> should be an OISC there, indeed |
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1260 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:58:54: <ais523> also, there's a corner of esolangs with several examples that I don't think has a name, but it stores all its data in a queue or stack or something like that, and is reasonably imperative |
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1261 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:59:04: <ais523> elliott: Fractran? |
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1262 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:59:30: <elliott> <ais523> also, there's a corner of esolangs with several examples that I don't think has a name, but it stores all its data in a queue or stack or something like that, and is reasonably imperative |
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1263 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:59:35: <ais523> no, but there was an equivalent language that was |
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1264 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:59:44: <ais523> elliott: FALSE is a little atypical of it |
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1265 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:00:59:53: <ais523> I was thinking more along the lines of Sceql |
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1266 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:00:09: <ais523> (FALSE is in there, but is an outlier) |
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1267 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:00:22: <ais523> I thought so, but now I'm having problems thinking of them |
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1268 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:00:24: <ais523> to the wiki! |
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1269 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:00:52: <ais523> probably half of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based |
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1270 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:01:25: <ais523> Piet counts |
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1271 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:01:39: <ais523> it uses an unusual source code form, but computationally it's just like that |
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1272 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:02:10: <ais523> elliott: I know, it was a timing coincidence |
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1273 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:02:15: <ais523> I didn't see his comment while I was writing mine |
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1274 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:03:06: <elliott> ais523: oh, that's amazing |
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1275 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:11:22: <ais523> hey, remember that one-dimensional MMO we were discussing ages ago? |
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1276 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:11:26: <ais523> `pastlog one-dimensional MMO |
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1277 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:27:48: <elliott> ais523: goooon |
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1278 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:28:15: <ais523> elliott: I can't remember many of the details either |
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1279 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:28:17: <ais523> that's why I asked |
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1280 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:28:28: <ais523> I remember that it was going to give some kind of main advantage for being online constantly |
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1281 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:28:50: <ais523> some mechanic involving swapping with someone, and you could cancel a swap that someone was trying to do to you manually within 5 minutes or so |
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1282 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:48:21: <augur> ais523: ty |
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1283 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:53:28: <augur> ais523: thank you |
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1284 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:58:28: <ais523> augur: thanks for thanking me |
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1285 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:58:47: <elliott> ais523: thanks |
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1286 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:58:55: <augur> ais523: for your comment on the typo on reddit |
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1287 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:59:30: <ais523> ah, OK |
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1288 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:59:40: <ais523> that was your program? I don't have everyone here's reddit usernames memorized |
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1289 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:01:59:47: <ais523> elliott: you're welcome |
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1290 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:00:10: <ais523> come to think of it, I'm not sure if a recursive function with no recursive call is even legal in Verity |
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1291 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:00:11: <ais523> let me check |
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1292 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:00:12: <augur> ais523: indeed. me = psygnisfive |
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1293 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:00:49: <ais523> $ ./gosc -S /tmp/t.ia |
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1294 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:00:51: <ais523> /tmp/t.ia: recursion in input program cannot be converted: recursive argument f not used in fix(\f.c_skip$0) [line 1 character 0 - line 1 character 11] |
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1295 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:00:58: <ais523> indeed it isn't |
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1296 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:02:52: <elliott> ais523: thanks |
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1297 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:03:34: <ais523> sadly, the error message for something like "fix \f.\x.{f(f(x))}" is much worse, as the compiler can't figure out exactly where the error happens, just that it happens |
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1298 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:03:52: <ais523> (I must write an article about Verity programming some day; the semantics are almost eso in some places, e.g. that line isn't obviously wrong) |
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1299 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:04:07: <elliott> ais523: link to verity's site? |
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1300 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:04:26: <ais523> http://www.veritygos.org/ |
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1301 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:04:32: <ais523> which in Firefox, at least to me, is an infinite redirect loop |
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1302 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:04:53: <ais523> also Epiphany, so it's not a result of refusing cookies |
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1303 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:04:55: <ais523> wow, that's impressive |
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1304 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:05:25: <ais523> the old name, https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/ is still working |
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1305 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:05:51: <elliott> ais523: have you tried to convince the lawyers to let you license it under something more reasonable any more? |
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1306 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:06:08: <ais523> <ais523 to website owner> That link is currently a redirect to itself. |
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1307 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:06:19: <ais523> nah, because my boss agrees with them, and he's not worth arguing with |
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1308 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:06:27: <ais523> besides the license is reasonable, for what it's intended for |
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1309 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:06:53: <ais523> hmm, it makes quite a statement |
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1310 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:06:57: <ais523> it's like the website version of a fixed point |
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1311 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:08:39: <elliott> ais523: you said verity's syntax is documented; where is that? |
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1312 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:08:47: <ais523> in a file grammar.txt inside the documentation |
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1313 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:08:51: <ais523> and permissive, it's all in the EULA |
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1314 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:09:36: <ais523> "(e) Directory Examples can be used, copied, reproduced and distributed without restriction." |
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1315 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:10:09: <ais523> hmm, they forgot "modified" |
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1316 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:10:24: <ais523> perhaps |
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1317 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:12:23: <ais523> $ find lib -name '*.vhd' | wc -l \ 5 \ $ find lib -name '*.v' | wc -l \ 2 \ $ find include -name '*.ia' | wc -l \ 4 |
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1318 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:12:31: <ais523> depends on your definition |
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1319 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:12:39: <ais523> we're planning to write more |
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1320 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:12:51: <ais523> and maybe support .ml libraries for the interpreter |
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1321 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:13:08: <ais523> thing that annoys me; OCaml's compiler is not available via the OCaml libraries |
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1322 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:13:17: <ais523> it's written in OCaml, there's no reason it /shouldn't/ be |
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1323 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:13:46: <ais523> you can't convince me not to do my job :) |
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1324 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:13:53: <ais523> however, I'm not sure how many more or less my job will require me to write |
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1325 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:14:16: <ais523> however however, some of them are platform-specific to platforms you probably don't own, and some are very simple |
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1326 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:14:44: <ais523> one thing not described in the distribution is the VHDL/Verilog API, which is important for writing libraries in languages other than Verity |
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1327 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:14:52: <ais523> it is described in our papers, though |
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1328 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:14:59: <ais523> apart from the naming schemes |
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1329 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:15:10: <ais523> "sharing" = what, in this context? |
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1330 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:15:54: <ais523> yep, let f = \x.x;x in new x:=2 in f(x := !x + 1); print(x) |
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1331 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:16:16: <ais523> (whitespace is irrelevant except for separating alphanumeric tokens, as you probably guessed already) |
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1332 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:16:58: <ais523> err, huh |
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1333 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:17:01: <ais523> the license defines Documentation |
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1334 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:17:06: <ais523> and then there are no license terms relating to it |
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1335 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:17:25: <ais523> I believe that means that its license is all rights reserved, by default |
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1336 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:17:29: <ais523> but I'm not a lawyer so don't know for certain |
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1337 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:18:30: <ais523> elliott: if you read the grammar off a website, would that be unacceptable? |
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1338 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:18:51: <ais523> note that (despite what Oracle are claiming in court), implementing an API is not a derivative work of that API |
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1339 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:19:31: <ais523> "By installing, downloading, and/or using the Software, You agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement." |
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1340 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:19:43: <ais523> ah, hmm, Software apparently includes Documentation |
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1341 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:19:56: <ais523> who comes up with these definitions? |
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1342 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:20:38: <ais523> ah, OK, the license terms apply to the Software as a whole, including the documentation |
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1343 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:20:56: <ais523> elliott: perhaps I can persuade them to put the grammar on the website, then |
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1344 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:21:16: <ais523> hahaha |
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1345 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:21:23: <ais523> they didn't put the quick-start guide behind a EULA |
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1346 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:21:56: <ais523> (it's behind a download link, though, for reasons I don't understand; but it's a Markdown file with a .txt extension, because I passed it off to them as plain text) |
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1347 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:23:17: <ais523> hmm |
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1348 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:23:25: <ais523> operator precedence is a pain to describe over IRC |
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1349 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:23:36: <ais523> due to notation that would simplify describing it being used in the language itself |
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1350 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:23:46: <ais523> maybe I'll just explain in operator precedence order |
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1351 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:23:53: <ais523> starting at the loosest |
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1352 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:25:05: <ais523> so, loosest is lambda (\a.b), scoped binding (let a = b in c, which is sugar for (\a.c)(b)), fixedpoint (fix \a.b); fixedpoint has the same semantics as fix in haskell, except it must take a literal lambda as its argument |
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1353 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:25:22: <ais523> and although those are all equal, I don't think there's any possible circumstance in which it would matter anyway |
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1354 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:25:36: <ais523> next is pair formation (a,b) |
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1355 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:25:43: <ais523> not by me! |
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1356 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:26:05: <ais523> tswett: seems pretty categorical to me |
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1357 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:26:37: <ais523> after that is the creation of memory cells, "new a in b", which causes a to be a memory location throughout b (and then cease to exist again) |
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1358 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:26:54: <ais523> oh, it's an identifier |
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1359 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:27:00: <ais523> that's array creation |
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1360 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:27:11: <ais523> which is something else that we haven't added to our grammar documentation |
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1361 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:27:28: <ais523> and specifically, serial array creation (an array where you can only access one element at a time) |
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1362 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:27:37: <ais523> btw, whether things can happen simultaneously or not is critical to understanding Verity |
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1363 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:27:53: <ais523> that's the only sort of array we've implemented so far |
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1364 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:28:09: <ais523> we're planning parallel arrays too, with syntax probably a[128], which would be sugar for defining 128 different variables |
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1365 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:28:18: <ais523> no, unless you plan to reject incorrect programs |
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1366 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:28:32: <ais523> the interpreter works by passing the code through the compiler's type-checker, then throwing away the output ;) |
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1367 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:28:50: <ais523> (except for inferring things like bitwidths) |
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1368 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:29:38: <ais523> OK, after that, is a || b, which is parallel composition; a and b must be allowed to be executed simultaneously, obviously |
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1369 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:29:51: <ais523> then a;b, sequential composition (i.e. "do a then b") |
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1370 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:30:00: <ais523> both || and ; take two commands as arguments and return a command |
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1371 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:30:12: <ais523> (and a command is a 0-bit integer with possible side effects) |
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1372 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:30:30: <ais523> then come the control structures: "while a do b" and "if a then b else c" |
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1373 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:30:57: <ais523> the first argument is a 1-bit integer; while takes a command as its loop body, if allows any base type in the then and else fields |
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1374 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:31:03: <ais523> well, it's meant to be practical |
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1375 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:31:10: <ais523> and they are, but there's syntax for them |
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1376 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:31:15: <ais523> to stop people having to write whiledo(a)(b) |
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1377 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:32:07: <ais523> it actually gets desugared into an ffi call internally, (c_while:(exp$1*com)->com) a b |
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1378 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:32:19: <ais523> and the actual implementation of while is done by the FFI |
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1379 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:32:30: <ais523> then is assignment, a := b |
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1380 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:32:42: <ais523> that's really really tightly binding |
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1381 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:32:56: <ais523> and part of the identifier syntax, at that |
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1382 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:33:52: <ais523> after that comes arithmetic primitives, | ^ (left-associative), &, == (non-associative), < > (non-associative), << >> +>> (left-associative), + - (left-associative), * |
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1383 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:34:08: <ais523> all have the same meaning as in C, except that >> is unsigned rightshift and +>> is signed rightshift |
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1384 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:34:34: <ais523> (i.e. >> fills the left-over bit with 0, +>> fills it with the sign bit of the original number, like >>> and >> in Java) |
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1385 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:34:54: <ais523> there's also a +< and +> for signed comparisons, which aren't in this grammar file for some reason; < and > are unsigned |
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1386 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:35:10: <ais523> after that is ~, unary bit-complement (the same as in C) |
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1387 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:35:13: <elliott> ais523: you know, Haskell solved this operator syntax problem excellently. |
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1388 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:35:15: <ais523> after that is !, variable dereference |
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1389 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:36:01: <elliott> monqy: better than ais523 solved it |
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1390 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:36:18: <ais523> then is function call, "a(b)" (can also be written as "a b" if b is sufficiently simple; IIRC it must be a constant or identifier, possibly with a cast) |
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1391 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:36:54: <ais523> then tightest of all is bitwidth conversion, a$$n where n is a literal integer, which discards high bits or zero-extends |
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1392 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:37:02: <ais523> (and likewise, a+$$n discards high bits or sign-extends) |
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1393 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:37:12: <ais523> you can also put various type assertions on things |
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1394 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:37:36: <ais523> examples would be :com, :exp$5, :(com -> com) |
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1395 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:37:49: <ais523> single-dollar is a bitwidth assertion, which can be used on types or numerical constants |
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1396 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:37:54: <ais523> so 0$8 means an eight-bit zero |
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1397 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:38:00: <ais523> and exp$5 a five-bit integer |
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1398 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:38:04: <ais523> exp$0 is equivalent to com |
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1399 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:38:23: <ais523> and 0$0 can also be written as "skip" |
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1400 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:38:39: <ais523> unary minus always requires parens, incidentally |
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1401 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:38:45: <ais523> to distinguish between a-1 and a(-1) |
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1402 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:39:06: <ais523> anyway, that's about it, syntactically |
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1403 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:39:14: <ais523> there's also a lambda that works on tuples, \(a,b).x |
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1404 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:39:52: <ais523> and the difference between \a.\b.x and \(a,b).x is that the second asserts that a and b can be used simultaneously, the first asserts that they can't be |
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1405 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:40:17: <ais523> well, there are three different type systems… |
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1406 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:40:35: <ais523> programs are written in ICA, but must be valid in SCC |
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1407 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:40:46: <ais523> and then that's converted to SCI for use in hardware |
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1408 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:40:59: <ais523> I could try to describe them over IRC, or just link you to the papers defining them |
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1409 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:42:17: <ais523> here, http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf |
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1410 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:42:37: <ais523> that describes not only all the type systems used, but all the algorithms we use to convert between them |
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1411 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:43:14: <ais523> oh, and it describes the resulting circuitry too |
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1412 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:43:23: <ais523> except in the case of recursion, which we hadn't worked out at the time that paper was written |
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1413 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:43:51: <ais523> well, then you wouldn't be rejecting invalid programs, but it'd still work fine on the valid ones, mostly |
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1414 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:43:54: <ais523> except for bitwidth inference |
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1415 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:44:39: <elliott> monqy: ais523&co.'s impure, call-by-name higher-order functional language |
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1416 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:44:54: <ais523> for instance, print(~4) implies that the 4 is a 32-bit 4, at least if you do an "import <print>" |
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1417 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:45:10: <ais523> because print.vhd defines print as being of type exp$32->com |
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1418 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:45:25: <ais523> and of course the bitwidth of the 4 will affect what its complement is |
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1419 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:46:41: * elliott wonders if ais523 has monqy on ignore or something |
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1420 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:46:47: <ais523> I don't |
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1421 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:46:52: <ais523> just you answered faster than I did |
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1422 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:46:59: <ais523> monqy: I wanted to call it ALGOL-11 |
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1423 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:47:02: <ais523> but they wouldn't let me |
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1424 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:47:16: <ais523> well, ALGOL-12 by now I guess, but 11 sounds nicer |
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1425 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:47:56: <elliott> ais523: he asked earlier, too |
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1426 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:48:23: <ais523> it is very much an Algol dialect, though, semantically |
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1427 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:48:34: <ais523> and the syntax is different but based off similar principles |
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1428 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:48:52: <ais523> elliott: oh, there's also {} in the syntax, which is sugar for ():com |
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1429 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:49:07: <ais523> so you can write while 1 do {command; another_command} |
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1430 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:49:31: <ais523> the type system also has var, but it's sugar for something |
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1431 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:49:56: <ais523> ah, var$n = (exp$n*(exp$n->com)) |
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1432 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:50:25: <ais523> which means that I guess ! and := could be implemented in pure Verity, if I were so inclined |
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1433 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:50:29: <ais523> but there's no way to define operators yet |
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1434 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:50:53: <ais523> oh, and the other thing that it's easy to miss is that division doesn't exist |
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1435 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:50:56: <ais523> we might add a library for div and mod |
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1436 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:51:00: <elliott> <ais523> but there's no way to define operators yet |
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1437 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:51:01: <elliott> <elliott> ais523: you know, Haskell solved this operator syntax problem excellently. |
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1438 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:51:38: <ais523> just by interpreting any random string of characters it doesn't understand as an operator |
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1439 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:51:48: <ais523> but that's actually more complex than what we're doing at the moment |
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1440 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:51:56: <ais523> *string of punctuation marks |
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1441 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:52:47: <ais523> because you'd need to get the parser to parse prio operatives (or whatever you call them, but it's called prio in algol 68) and then change the way it parsed from then on accordingly |
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1442 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:52:52: <ais523> I thought you didn't like state? |
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1443 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:53:00: <ais523> (^ both nonsequitur and strawman) |
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1444 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:53:53: <elliott> ais523: how many 1-pass compilers are there? |
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1445 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:56:45: <ais523> elliott: it's very hard to convince people to use a language where a+b*c doesn't do what they expect |
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1446 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:57:02: <ais523> "looking vaguely familiar" was the main criterion we used to design Verity's syntax |
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1447 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:57:19: <ais523> I added {} for ():com simply because I wanted to use them for while statements |
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1448 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:57:32: <ais523> because it looked weird with () |
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1449 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:58:05: * elliott isn't sure "convincing people to use Verity" is a real problem ais523 faces :P |
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1450 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:58:20: <ais523> I don't face it /personally/ |
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1451 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:02:58:31: <ais523> but I was asked to help the people/person out whose job it was |
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1452 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:02:32: <elliott> ais523: anyway, why does the language need a built-in notion of bitwidths? |
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1453 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:02:47: <ais523> concession to hardware, where everything needs a set bitwidth |
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1454 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:03:17: <ais523> "4-bit integer" and "1024-bit integer" are completely different types, the type system should reflect that |
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1455 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:03:33: <elliott> ais523: # |
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1456 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:04:33: <ais523> elliott: because it's an operation that people will want to do a lot? and because it makes sense to be able to access the bits of an integer in parallel with each other? |
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1457 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:04:54: <ais523> (exp$1 * exp$1) is not the same type as (exp$2) in terms of the operations you can do o nit |
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1458 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:04:55: <ais523> *on it |
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1459 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:05:07: <ais523> as the first is a promise that you won't access the two bits simultaneously |
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1460 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:05:14: <elliott> ais523: people want to do lots of operations a lot, that doesn't mean they have to be axiomatic! |
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1461 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:06:18: <ais523> not really, that'd complicate the type system considerably for no real gain |
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1462 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:06:39: <ais523> tupling is serial, currying is parallel, is the whole heart of the language |
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1463 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:06:50: <ais523> (c_seq:com*com->com) (c_par:com->com->com) |
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1464 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:07:08: <ais523> elliott: well, you'd need to add empty tuples as well, or else make com a separate type from exp$0 |
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1465 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:07:48: <ais523> elliott: also, you'd need a sufficiently smart compiler to even produce remotely efficient hardware |
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1466 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:08:11: <ais523> because it's possible to force individual parts of a tuple |
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1467 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:08:18: <ais523> and the hardware would need to reflect that |
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1468 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:08:34: <ais523> imagine a program like (\(a,b).a)(print(4),print(5)) |
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1469 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:00: <ais523> or (\(a&b).a)(print(4)&print(5)) with & as parallel tuple rather than bitwise & |
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1470 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:07: <ais523> and I didn't overload syntax, did I? |
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1471 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:10: <ais523> at least, what do you think I overloaded |
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1472 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:13: <ais523> yes, bitwise XOR |
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1473 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:22: <ais523> (a,b) means a tuple b |
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1474 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:25: <ais523> nope, @ isn't used |
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1475 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:46: <ais523> com |
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1476 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:09:56: <ais523> print itself has type exp$32->com |
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1477 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:10:11: <ais523> because some definite value needs to be picked for separate compilation, and 32 is nicely sized for most applications of print |
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1478 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:10:16: <ais523> yep |
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1479 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:10:34: <ais523> now, (exp@exp@…) would allow you to force individual bits independently |
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1480 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:10:44: <ais523> and have different side effects on different bits |
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1481 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:11:03: <ais523> which would mean 32 potential entry points |
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1482 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:11:16: <ais523> which would be rather nastily inefficient for hardware that's O(number of entry points) |
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1483 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:11:52: <ais523> elliott: OK, so you have a parallel tuple that forces you to force every element at once? |
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1484 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:12:11: <ais523> hmm, this concept actually exists in call-by-push-value, it has two types of tuples for this reason |
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1485 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:12:17: <elliott> ais523: Isn't exp$32 a parallel 32-tuple that forces you to force every element at once? |
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1486 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:12:47: <ais523> elliott: well, no, it's not implemented like that, but it is equivalent to that |
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1487 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:13:08: <ais523> elliott: anyway, this type system doesn't even make sense now, what's ((com*com)@com) meant to mean? |
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1488 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:13:12: <ais523> (com*com) has two entry points |
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1489 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:13:25: <ais523> so which of them gets forced when you force the whole thing? |
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1490 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:13:52: <ais523> this isn't even my language any more, it's basic call-by-name semantics |
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1491 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:14:48: <ais523> elliott: oh, in Verity, you force individual tuple elements, forcing the whole tuple isn't something that makes sense |
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1492 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:14:58: <ais523> and likewise, it's impossible to sequence a tuple with something, seq only works on base types |
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1493 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:15:16: <ais523> elliott: it's that way in all the literature for Algol-like languages |
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1494 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:15:47: <elliott> ais523: well, that means you identify _|_ and (_|_,_|_), right? |
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1495 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:15:50: <ais523> elliott: think of com as being like a monad action, if it helps; that's one valid way to implement it |
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1496 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:16:22: <ais523> elliott: (_|_, _|_) would be a reasonable way to define _|_ at a product type, yes |
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1497 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:16:50: <elliott> ais523: then, I don't see what's wrong with forcing both sides of it |
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1498 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:16:59: <ais523> because (_|_, 0) is also a legal value |
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1499 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:17:05: <elliott> ais523: that's fine |
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1500 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:17:39: <ais523> it is impossible to define (,) in Verity, except in terms of itself |
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1501 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:18:18: <ais523> elliott: so which /order/ does it force the two sides of (print 0, print 1)@skip? |
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1502 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:18:42: <ais523> it can't force them simultaneously, , introduces a serial tuple |
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1503 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:19:17: <elliott> ais523: left first, why not |
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1504 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:19:48: <ais523> I fail to see how this type system is less complicated than the one with a primitive fixed-width integer type :) |
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1505 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:20:16: <ais523> oh, the other reason things like + are primitive in Verity, is that you can't define polymorphic functions |
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1506 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:21:01: <ais523> from a semantic level, if you write print(3+4), the compiler will generate a 32-bit + for you |
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1507 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:21:04: <ais523> and use that |
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1508 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:21:17: <ais523> to prevent a huge amount of duplication, it uses generics in the generated VHDL |
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1509 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:21:57: <ais523> yep |
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1510 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:22:02: <ais523> it is, in the FFI |
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1511 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:22:14: <ais523> but + gets desugared into an FFI call |
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1512 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:23:12: <ais523> I agree that proper C++-style templates would make a reasonable addition to the language, though; they're mentioned in one of our papers |
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1513 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:23:20: <ais523> well, not /that/ C++-style, that would be insane by definition |
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1514 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:23:23: <ais523> but the basic idea |
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1515 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:24:42: <ais523> polymorphism only over bitwidths would be so much easier |
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1516 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:24:57: <ais523> mostly because VHDL doesn't support polymorphism except for array bounds |
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1517 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:25:33: <ais523> although, it'd be nice if a parallel array was just a template that took a compile-time param and returned a variable |
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1518 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:25:45: <ais523> now I'm seriously thinking about this |
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1519 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:26:39: <ais523> you can't even write recursive data structures |
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1520 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:26:55: <ais523> except by rolling your own malloc-alike, or by implementing them as functions (which is very inefficient for most practical uses) |
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1521 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:27:02: <ais523> oh, you saw that? |
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1522 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:27:13: <ais523> that's done with a roll-your-own-malloc, and not a particularly efficient one at that |
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1523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:27:15: <ais523> I didn't write it |
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1524 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:27:22: <ais523> that was my supervisor trying to prove a point |
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1525 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:27:41: <ais523> that hardware recursion was useful, or something |
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1526 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:27:45: <ais523> I'm not entirely sure myself |
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1527 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:29:03: <ais523> perhaps |
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1528 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:29:16: <ais523> there are so many restrictions on our hardware fix impl that I'm not at all convinced it's useful |
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1529 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:29:34: <ais523> no parallelism anywhere near it, mostly |
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1530 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:29:51: <ais523> also, you can't nest fix inside fix; it's possible to design circuitry so you could, but it'd be much less efficient so we don't |
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1531 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:30:14: <ais523> (fix \f.\x.(f(x)||skip) cannot be implemented in hardware with the techniques we're using) |
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1532 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:30:44: <ais523> and it's a semantic restriction; it's implementing syntactically into the compiler because I couldn't figure out how it worked in the type system and how to modify the compiler accordingly |
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1533 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:31:13: <ais523> well, we've already achieved more with it than anyone else has before |
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1534 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:31:16: <ais523> apart from pipelining |
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1535 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:31:20: <ais523> but I'm working on that atm |
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1536 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:31:46: <ais523> "the catch"? in what? |
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1537 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:32:25: <ais523> there's a limited recursion value, because you run out of memory for a stack after a while |
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1538 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:32:44: <ais523> although instead of having a global stack, which has terrible performance by hardware standards, we have a different stack for each variable in the program |
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1539 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:32:56: <ais523> i.e. new allocates stacks rather than individual memory cells |
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1540 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:33:27: <ais523> it's done by getting all the state in the program to refer to a different location depending on the recursion depth |
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1541 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:33:32: <ais523> including state in control |
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1542 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:33:50: <ais523> (i.e. remembering which branch of the ; you're in in \x.x;x) |
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1543 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:34:58: <ais523> λq.(λg.g(λx.g(qx)))(λb.(λk.((k(λu.u))(λl.((kb)(λt.(l(t skip)))))))(λv.λw.wv)) |
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1544 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:35:11: <ais523> took me so long to work out that expression :) |
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1545 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:35:42: <ais523> it's of type (com^m -> com^n -> com)^(n^2) -> com, m <= 1 |
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1546 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:36:03: <ais523> the issue was finding an expression that had a side-condition like that |
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1547 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:36:13: <ais523> that's SCC type |
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1548 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:36:33: <ais523> it was hard enough proving that the type system was even decidable in the absence of polymorphism |
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1549 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:36:42: <ais523> it is, but it's nontrivial enough to see that that we got a paper out of it |
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1550 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:36:47: <ais523> together with the type system transformations |
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1551 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:37:35: <ais523> this is arguably a deficiency of the type system, due to using (\v.\w.wv) in two unrelated contexts that just happen to have similar types |
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1552 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:37:46: <ais523> I'm not convinced that ML lets you do that either, though |
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1553 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:37:52: <ais523> (Anarchy would!) |
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1554 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:40:29: <ais523> it's just you |
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1555 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:40:38: <ais523> its semantics are almost identical to algol 60's |
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1556 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:40:52: <ais523> allowing for the difference in syntax |
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1557 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:41:03: <ais523> which isn't even that different; they both work on the same principle, just use different names for things |
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1558 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:41:57: <ais523> oh, and algol 60 doesn't have || |
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1559 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:42:02: <ais523> the file extension should really be .ica rather than .ia |
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1560 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:42:12: <ais523> but what happened was that I was using .ica and my supervisor was using .ia |
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1561 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:42:20: <ais523> and we had to standardise on one eventually |
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1562 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:42:22: <ais523> besides, .ia looks better |
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1563 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:42:44: <ais523> well we can't change it /now/ :P |
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1564 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:44:00: <ais523> that was a crazy idea that my supervisor said |
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1565 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:44:16: <ais523> he was talking to someone else, and they decided it would be worthwhile for the compiler, and might even replace pipelining |
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1566 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:44:20: <ais523> and I had to tell them why they were completely wrong |
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1567 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:44:28: <ais523> they'd basically discovered common subexpression elimination |
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1568 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:44:32: <elliott> ais523: haha |
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1569 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:44:35: <ais523> and confused it with call-by-need |
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1570 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:45:07: <ais523> although, "parallel call-by-need" or whatever it's called could be worthwhile |
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1571 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:45:20: <ais523> we discovered that it's possible via a source-level transformation, though |
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1572 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:46:16: <ais523> basically, whenever you determine the value of a lambda variable in a particular scope, you start specializing everything in that scope that uses the variable, in the background |
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1573 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:46:28: <ais523> and then when it goes out of scope, kill the specializations |
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1574 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:46:40: <ais523> and return to the original |
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1575 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:46:59: <ais523> elliott: well, think of it this way: \x.print(x+1);print(x+1) |
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1576 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:47:25: <ais523> as soon as that's called, x gets a value, x+1 gets specialized in the background (i.e. only executed once), and you end up printing the sum twice while only calculating it once |
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1577 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:48:16: <ais523> the similarity with common subexpression elimination comes when you realise that's equivalent to \x.new y := x+1 in print(!y);print(!y), with a backgrounded initialization of y |
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1578 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:48:25: <ais523> (important if print takes some time to set up before it asks for !y's value) |
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1579 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:49:09: <ais523> anyway, we realised that in the absence of side-effects, background-calculating things didn't actually cost anything at all |
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1580 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:49:38: <ais523> not even in the need to be able to kill the calculation halfway through, because we can use the same circuitry for that as we do for the global reset |
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1581 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:49:52: <ais523> (which is necessary so that we don't end up with multiple instruction pointers at power on) |
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1582 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:51:06: <ais523> no, but if we do it, it'll be as a source-level translation anyway |
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1583 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:51:17: <ais523> together with extra support for a one-way parallel composition |
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1584 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:51:48: <ais523> yes, of course |
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1585 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:52:13: <ais523> why do you think that quickstart.txt contains detailed notes on which things to click in Quartus II to get it working properly? or have you not read that? |
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1586 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:53:40: <ais523> someone who's apparently really important came round, and we showed him a recursive memoized Fibonacci that displayed its result in hex on some seven-segment displays |
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1587 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:53:44: <ais523> running on an actual FPGA |
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1588 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:54:09: <ais523> I wasn't there at the time |
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1589 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:54:12: <ais523> so I don't know |
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1590 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:54:25: <ais523> anyway, the funny thing was that he was giving a seminar, and I was pretty much forced to attend |
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1591 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:54:35: <ais523> but by the time I got there, the whole room was full and there was no room for me, so I didn't |
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1592 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:54:42: <ais523> and it seems the same threat had gone out to the whole department |
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1593 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:55:03: <ais523> it's an xor, isn't it? |
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1594 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:55:13: <elliott> ais523: no |
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1595 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:55:23: <elliott> ais523: the idea is that you get to pick whether (P & ~Q) or (~P & Q) |
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1596 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:55:42: <ais523> elliott: clearly that requires state :) |
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1597 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:55:47: <elliott> ais523: well, it's like linear logic, sort of |
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1598 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:55:56: <ais523> not really |
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1599 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:56:23: <ais523> p :- \+ q_mem, assertz(p_mem). q :- \+ p_mem, assertz(q_mem). |
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1600 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:56:41: <elliott> ais523: heh |
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1601 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:56:51: <ais523> it's much clearer in Prolog :P |
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1602 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:58:42: <ais523> elliott: something like "X=p" and "X=q" in Prolog? |
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1603 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:58:59: <ais523> either is true, but not if you use them both in the same scope |
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1604 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:59:04: <elliott> ais523: yes, similar |
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1605 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:59:44: <ais523> elliott: (p, q)? |
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1606 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:59:47: <ais523> in Verity? |
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1607 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:03:59:59: <ais523> you can't use p and q at the same time |
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1608 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:00:13: <ais523> the type system forces it, linear-logic-style |
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1609 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:01:54: <ais523> I don't know anything about that syntax for linear logic |
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1610 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:02:00: <ais523> other than recognising it |
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1611 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:03:05: <ais523> "⊗" is typically pronounced as "tensor" regardless of what it actually means |
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1612 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:04:37: <ais523> affine type systems, on the other hand, I'm happy with /those/ |
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1613 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:04:48: <ais523> (an affine type system is like a linear one, except it allows you to not use a variable if you don't want to) |
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1614 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:05:40: <ais523> anyway, -> is affine in SCI and Verity |
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1615 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:05:59: <ais523> (and tuple formation is non-affine, which is why it has the restriction that you can only use one side at a time; so that the hardware itself ends up used in an affine way) |
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1616 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:12:00: <elliott> it sounds like shachaf has an affinity for ais523's type system |
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1617 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:12:13: <ais523> don't make this into a pun thread :( |
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1618 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:13:51: <elliott> ais523: come on that one was awful |
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1619 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:14:19: <ais523> maybe if I ignore them they'll go away? |
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1620 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:15:08: <elliott> ais523: careful, if you start ignoring everyone you might incur some unwanted affines you have to pay |
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1621 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:17:33: <ais523> shachaf: just use a stride? |
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1622 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:17:45: <ais523> have a pointer and add the width of a row to it each time round the loop |
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1623 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:17:55: <ais523> probably not cache-efficient, but I don't think there is a cache-efficient way to do that |
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1624 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:18:14: <shachaf> ais523: Right, I was looking for something more cache-efficient. :-) |
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1625 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:18:30: <ais523> but how can there be one? the stuff you're looking for is not together in memory |
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1626 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:18:39: <ais523> I guess you could use a GPU, where you manage the caches yourself? |
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1627 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:18:43: <shachaf> ais523: I know. :-( |
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1628 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:19:09: <ais523> so that you only incure the cache-inefficiency penalty once? |
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1629 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:19:24: <ais523> elliott: interleaving is nearly always a bad idea cache-wise |
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1630 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:19:30: <ais523> no matter what you're interleaving or why |
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1631 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:19:51: <elliott> ais523: OK, /fine/, buy two-dimensional memory and store the row-major stuff /behind/ the column-major stuff |
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1632 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:19:53: <ais523> unless, on a CPU, the values you're interleaving would always be accessed together |
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1633 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:20:09: <ais523> dual-layer memory? like a DVD? |
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1634 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:21:29: <ais523> shachaf: I gave a lecture partly about doing that efficiently |
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1635 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:21:44: <ais523> because the person who was meant to give it booked a plane in the morning rather than the afternoon |
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1636 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:22:02: <ais523> (because he'd tried to book one in the afternoon, been offered one in the morning instead, and didn't check to make sure it was at the time he requested) |
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1637 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:23:17: <ais523> the funny thing is, that over half the matrix transpose stuff had been made moot since the year before |
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1638 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:23:23: <ais523> because GPUs had got better at accessing device memory |
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1639 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:04:32:07: <elliott> ais523: "We have to write out binary data, so we use the writeFile defined in Data.ByteString.Char8, which operates on ByteStrings. This is why we need to convert our String to a ByteString first using B.pack." |
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1640 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:05:09:02: <ais523> a GPU can transpose matrices at over 60GBps |
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1641 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:05:23:41: <elliott> ais523: |
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1642 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:05:23:57: <ais523> not sure |
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1643 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:05:24:01: <ais523> haven't tried |
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1644 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:05:24:04: <ais523> but I don't think it's that fast |
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1645 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:17:38: <ais523> elliott: I think you can also appeal to arbcom, in the case of new evidence, or simply nobody understanding the previous verdict |
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1646 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:18:30: <elliott> ais523: yep, but the higher authority is explicitly jimbo |
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1647 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:25:03: <ais523> shachaf: needs more rvalue references |
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1648 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:25:07: * ais523 has not looked at the code |
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1649 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:29:03: <shachaf> ais523: Would you look at the code if it was C? |
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1650 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:29:44: <ais523> no |
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1651 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:00: <ais523> elliott: *(c?a:b) = 0 is valid C |
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1652 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:10: <ais523> in C++, you don't need the * if a and b are lvalue references |
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1653 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:14: <ais523> elliott: "deek-stra" |
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1654 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:20: <elliott> ais523: are you sure? |
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1655 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:25: <ais523> reasonably |
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1656 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:33: <ais523> oh, that's the same thing |
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1657 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:36: <ais523> maybe not |
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1658 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:30:41: <ais523> perhaps that's right |
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1659 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:31:09: <elliott> <ais523> in C++, you don't need the * if a and b are lvalue references |
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1660 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:31:33: <ais523> seriously? |
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1661 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:31:37: <ais523> !help languages |
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1662 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:32:04: <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; cout >> a >> endl; |
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1663 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:32:19: <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; |
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1664 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:32:24: <ais523> EgoBot: 'twould be nice if you'd tell us /why/ |
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1665 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:32:29: <ais523> hmm |
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1666 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:32:47: <ais523> hahahaha |
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|
1667 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:32:50: <ais523> wtf? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1668 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:33:20: <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << a << std::endl; |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1669 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:33:35: <ais523> but I retyped that |
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1670 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:33:52: <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; std::cout << a << std::endl; |
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|
1671 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:33:58: <elliott> also, why was shachaf's valid but not ais523's? |
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|
1672 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:34:00: <ais523> (retyped again just to make sure) |
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|
1673 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:34:00: <elliott> ais523: you idiot |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1674 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:34:02: <elliott> <ais523> !cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << a << std::endl; |
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1675 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:34:22: <ais523> oh, a isn't initialized, and b is getting assigned to |
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1676 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:34:44: <ais523> so why is uninitialized memory consistently 32767, I wonder? |
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|
1677 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:34:49: <elliott> ais523: UML, presumably |
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1678 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:35:08: <elliott> ais523: it's effectively a clean-booted Linux system every command |
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1679 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:35:17: <ais523> but why not 0? |
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1680 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:36:07: <elliott> ais523: since when is unininitialised memory usually 0? |
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1681 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:36:25: <ais523> it's more often 0 than anything else |
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1682 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:36:36: <ais523> or some sentinel value (32767 is not a good sentinel value) |
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1683 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:06:42:24: <elliott> I wonder if ais523 is not saying "jif" so that I keep talking to him. |
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|
1684 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:01:41: <elliott> ais523: Hey, should I sleep? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1685 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:01:54: <shachaf> <ais523> yes |
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|
1686 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:01:57: <ais523> at some point |
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1687 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:02:04: <ais523> you don't seem as tired as last time you asked that |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1688 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:02:20: <ais523> depends on when you want to wake up |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1689 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:12:50: <elliott> Hey ais523, should I sleep? |
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1690 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:13:14: <ais523> elliott: can you not make your own mind up, this time? |
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1691 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:13:24: <ais523> also, quotes are {{{ }}}, or you're insufficiently Agoran |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1692 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:38:59: <elliott> ais523: Should I __ __ _____? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1693 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:39:18: <ais523> elliott: you could ask zzo38 to take your horoscope again |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1694 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:39:57: <ais523> you know that infinitely redirecting website? I got a reply back saying it was working yesterday |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1695 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:41:23: <elliott> ais523: problem solved, then |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1696 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:42:09: <ais523> zzo38: I imagine they're the same as last time |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1697 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:46:33: <elliott> ais523: USELESS TRIVIUM OF THE DAY: apparently, WMF developers aren't called developers any more |
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|
1698 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:07:46:51: <ais523> heh |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1699 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:08:19:30: <ais523> augur: "sqort" |
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1700 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:08:19:41: <ais523> your typo fix contains a typo of its own |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1701 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:08:19:51: <augur> ais523: :( |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1702 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:10:16:12: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1703 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:11:09:23: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1704 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:11:24:44: <ais523> kmc: is that a statement about in general? or just in Android? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1705 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:11:28:39: <kmc> ais523, it's true in general that you have few guarantees about wchar_t |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1706 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:11:59:43: <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: well, it's like linear logic, sort of |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1707 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:12:05:40: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
1708 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:05:36: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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|
1709 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:25:31: <ais523> ooh, Yahoo! Mail's POP thing started working again |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1710 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:25:35: <ais523> 187 new emails! |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1711 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:25:46: <pikhq_> ais523: ... You still have Yahoo! Mail? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1712 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:26:00: <ais523> pikhq_: "still"? I joined it relatively recently |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1713 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:26:22: <ais523> oerjan: actually, few are, I don't receive much spam on that account |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1714 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:26:25: <pikhq_> I see ais523 is computing like it's 1998. |
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1715 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:26:29: <ais523> and the spam filter has more false-positives than true positives |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1716 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:26:42: <ais523> pikhq_: I distrust them the least out of the three major webmail providers |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1717 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:28:08: <ais523> pikhq_: indeed, and I don't use it for long-term storage of anything |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1718 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:28:09: <ais523> just as a spool |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1719 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:30:12: <ais523> isn't the /main/ purpose of monad tutorials to annoy elliott? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1720 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-14.txt:23:30:44: <oerjan> ais523: shhh, that's secret! |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1721 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:03:13:42: <ais523> I'm not convinced the patent on tapping is enforceable anyway |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1722 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:03:13:45: <ais523> kmc: in the US, yes |
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1723 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:03:14:00: <ais523> but the fact that it exists is sufficient to let their lawyers scare people |
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1724 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:07:18:26: <ais523> since when do we get spambots in /here/? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1725 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:07:34:07: <Sgeo> ais523, I've been here for a while. I'm basically a spambot for PSOX. |
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1726 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:07:35:02: <ais523> I thought we mocked that out of you |
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1727 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:07:39:02: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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1728 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:07:53:36: <fizzie> @tell ais523 Maybe the spammers have been discouraged by problems with spamming the new wiki, and have decided to bring it here instead. |
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1729 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:12:13: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1730 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:28:48: <ais523> zzo38: what computational class is bLOOP? Do you know? |
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1731 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:28:48: <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. |
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1732 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:28:52: <ais523> @messages |
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1733 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:30:23: <zzo38> ais523: If you mean BlooP, then yes I know, but I don't know what it is called. |
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1734 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:30:44: <ais523> yes, that's what I meant |
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1735 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:30:46: <ais523> and, ah, OK |
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1736 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:09:30:53: <ais523> I sort-of know what class it is too, but don't know the name either |
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1737 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:11:23:22: -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). |
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1738 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:11:33:35: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1739 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:11:55:57: <oerjan> <ais523> zzo38: what computational class is bLOOP? Do you know? |
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1740 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:04:08: <ais523> unary output is easy :) |
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1741 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:15:24: <ais523> oerjan: hmm, that decimal conversion code looks neater than mine |
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1742 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:15:55: <ais523> where's the division by 10 done? I can't even see a constant 10 in there anywhere |
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1743 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:17:45: <oerjan> ais523: the deepest (!~:^) for the digit list applies an increment to the higher level digits |
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1744 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:21:27: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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1745 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:33:42: <oerjan> as ais523 alluded to, you usually want to do division by 10. |
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1746 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:45:36: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1747 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:47:45: <oerjan> ais523: see logs |
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1748 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:48:06: * ais523 looks |
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1749 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:49:18: <ais523> ah, right, it's a decimal increment |
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1750 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:51:10: <ais523> 10 is ::*:*:**, right? |
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1751 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:52:31: <ais523> err, right, it is |
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1752 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:52:51: <ais523> or alternatively :*::*:** |
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1753 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:53:05: <ais523> actually, no, I think your 10 is also a 9 |
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1754 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:53:28: <ais523> ^ul (a)::*:*:**S(b):::**::***S(c):*::*:**S |
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1755 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:53:48: <ais523> OK, both our 10s are correct |
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1756 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:53:55: <ais523> oh, yours is 3*3+1 |
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1757 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:54:04: <ais523> and mine is 2*(2*2+1) |
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1758 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:54:28: <ais523> at least mine's shorter :) |
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1759 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:12:55:20: <ais523> yes |
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1760 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:13:02:51: <ais523> underload |
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1761 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:13:02:56: <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload |
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1762 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-15.txt:13:38:01: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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1763 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:02:33:44: <elliott> @ask ais523 is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that? |
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1764 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:02:34:24: <elliott> @tell ais523 Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments. |
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1765 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:09:33:28: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1766 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:09:59:26: <ais523> both! |
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1767 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:09:59:26: <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. |
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1768 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:09:59:30: <ais523> @messages |
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1769 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:10:01:25: <ais523> @tell elliott yes, it is meant to look at that, and the implementation of the interpreter puts junk comments in its output, so removing them does indeed make it clearer |
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1770 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:10:01:32: <ais523> @tell elliott *like |
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1771 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:10:59:29: <ais523> "random access ROM"? so it's both ROM and RAM /simultaneously/? |
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1772 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:00:37: * ais523 notes that RAM is a bit of a weird name for what it's usually used for |
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1773 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:04:38: <Madoka-Kaname> ais523, it's ROM that can be randomly accessed. |
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1774 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:42:21: <ais523> btw, for fun, I tried reading the EULA of some shovelware games that came with Windows when I bought the computer |
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1775 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:42:28: <ais523> (didn't actually /accept/ it, of course) |
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1776 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:42:43: <ais523> among other things, it allowed them to modify it at any time simply by posting that they were doing so on their website |
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1777 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:42:50: <ais523> and disallowed you from uninstalling the software |
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1778 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:11:42:59: <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if it were enforceable… |
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1779 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:03:53: <ais523> oerjan: they also disallowed you directly or indirectly removing bits of it |
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1780 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:09:21: <ais523> zzo38: it did, but it wanted you to accept the EULA before doing anything but putting up an EULA acceptance dialog |
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1781 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:10:46: <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: re the topic, we really need to start an esolang programmer interviews section |
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1782 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:10:55: <ais523> even if they weren't being interviewed about esolangs |
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1783 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:13:29: <ais523> also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview |
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1784 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:13:31: <ais523> possibly both of you |
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1785 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:16:55: <ais523> `pastlog <oerjan>.*\?$ |
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1786 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:17:34: <ais523> `pastlog <oerjan>.*\?$ |
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1787 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:12:18:04: <ais523> that was 2009 |
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1788 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:13:55:37: <ais523> do you have zlib installed? |
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1789 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:13:55:50: <ais523> and if so, is it looking at the right headers to find it? |
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1790 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:14:51:18: <RocketJSquirrel> <ais523> also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview // I believe the only valid answer is "both of us" |
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1791 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:14:51:39: <ais523> I think so, indeed |
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1792 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:16:30:29: <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Also, are you volunteering to be interviewer? X-D |
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1793 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:16:30:51: <ais523> I'm not sure, but probably not |
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1794 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:16:31:10: <ais523> I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too |
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1795 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:10:37: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: isn't the whole /point/ that he's white and English and tries to emphasise that he isn't at every opportunity? |
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1796 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:12:56: <ais523> that's the main defining feature of his comedy |
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1797 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:31:09: <Vorpal> (I guess I should highlight ais523 for that question) |
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1798 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:31:59: <ais523> Vorpal: there have been debates over the definition |
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1799 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:32:15: <ais523> there's a definition that people came up with at a roguelike conference, but it's generally considered imperfect |
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1800 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:33:02: <Vorpal> ais523, got a link or anything useful for googling that? |
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1801 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:33:52: <ais523> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Berlin_Interpretation |
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1802 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:35:46: <Vorpal> ais523, hm do you know any game you would consider rogue like that isn't turn based? |
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1803 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:36:12: <ais523> Spelunky? |
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1804 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:36:19: <ais523> I've often wished it were turn-based, though |
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1805 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:36:26: <ais523> which is surprising given that it's a platformer |
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1806 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:36:39: <ais523> as well as a roguelike |
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1807 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:37:08: <ais523> everything pauses when you're not moving |
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1808 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:37:18: <ais523> like world 4 of Braid |
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1809 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:57:13: <ais523> Vorpal: you might also be interested in http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is |
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1810 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:57:26: <ais523> and ADOM is a really quest-heavy roguelike |
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1811 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:57:58: <ais523> ADOM is somewhat spoiler-heavy |
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1812 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:58:04: <ais523> also, closed-source |
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1813 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:58:35: <Vorpal> ais523, anyway a rogue like definitely doesn't need ASCII graphics. |
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1814 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:58:40: <ais523> indeed |
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1815 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:58:46: <ais523> it doesn't need any single one of the factors |
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1816 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:58:57: <ais523> oh, /that/ needs ASCII graphics ;) |
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1817 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:17:59:02: <ais523> (or at least, a better camera angle) |
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1818 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:18:00:51: <Vorpal> ais523, I can't think of a rogue like without at least an option for permadeath though |
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1819 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:18:01:43: <ais523> choose your own adventure books are typically second person |
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1820 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:18:07:55: <ais523> Vorpal: Spelunky doesn't have hunger, but sometimes an area you thought was safe isn't (slow-moving monster catches up to you, etc) |
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1821 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:18:08:03: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1822 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:20:22:05: <elliott> 16:30:51: <ais523> I'm not sure, but probably not |
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1823 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:20:22:05: <elliott> 16:31:10: <ais523> I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too |
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1824 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-16.txt:20:23:54: <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-Keymaker.aspx http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-ais523.aspx |
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1825 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:19:34:54: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1826 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:19:41:23: <ais523> hi |
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1827 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:21:52:09: <ais523> ooh, reading the diff algo you linked me to here, and I think I see where this is going |
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1828 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:21:52:32: <ais523> previous algorithm's equivalent to Dijkstra's in state space, and it's doing A* or an equivalent instead |
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1829 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:21:53:33: <ais523> huh, the example code is in Pascal |
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1830 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:21:53:45: <ais523> with operators replaced with mathematical notation, the same way papers sometimes do for Haskell |
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1831 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:21:56:17: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: please tell me that program has a filename clash with the game Pacman ;) |
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1832 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:22:25:42: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1833 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-17.txt:22:42:23: <zzo38> ais523: WEB replaces some Pascal operators with mathematical notations, but it also includes support for named chunks, pool strings, and octal and hexadecimal constants. |
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1834 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:15:14:23: <nortti> it has been deleted by ais523. Does anyone know what it contained? |
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1835 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:18:52:34: <elliott> @ask ais523 Is there any reason not to enable moves for unregistered users on the wiki? |
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1836 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:24:52: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1837 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:25:02: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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1838 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:28:51: <ais523> hi elliott |
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1839 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:28:51: <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. |
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1840 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:28:55: <ais523> @messages |
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1841 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:29:34: <ais523> elliott: it depends on if you expect we'll get vandals; moves can't be fully reversed by a non-admin, so the reason they're usually disallowed is to prevent vandalism that's disproportionately hard to revert |
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1842 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:29:39: <elliott> ais523: (context: the Basic Input/Output Commander did a copy-paste-move to a new name, and I had to learn how to do a history merge) |
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1843 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:29:40: <ais523> if you don't expect anyone to try that, no reason not to |
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1844 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:30:37: <ais523> the method used to be to delete the new name, rename the old name to the new name, undelete the new name, revert to the revision that's meant to be top |
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1845 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:30:45: <ais523> elliott: hahaha |
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1846 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:30:47: <elliott> ais523: that still is the method |
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1847 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:02: <ais523> `addquote <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context |
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1848 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:09: <ais523> elliott: well, you've been able to combine the rename and delete for ages |
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1849 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> and around when I left Wikipedia there were rumours that the devs were writing a less awkward way to histmerge and histsplit |
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1850 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:31: <ais523> looks like that fell through |
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1851 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:33: <ais523> `quote |
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1852 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:34: <ais523> `quote |
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1853 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:34: <elliott> ais523: (their edits were limited to changing the language to the new name, but since they admitted the language changed quite a bit since renaming, it's ridiculous) |
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1854 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:36: <ais523> `quote |
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1855 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:37: <ais523> `quote |
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1856 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:31:39: <ais523> `quote |
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1857 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:08: <ais523> hmm, I don't get 27 |
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1858 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:18: <ais523> the fungot quote is yet again good |
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1859 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:19: <fungot> ais523: syntax-rules is fairly easy |
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1860 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:21: <ais523> and I got 5 |
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1861 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:27: <oerjan> ais523: it's part of a series |
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1862 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:28: <ais523> and I got 5615, 276, 579, 120, 27 |
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1863 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:40: <ais523> oerjan: indeed, but it isn't a /good/ series |
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1864 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:32:54: <elliott> ais523: see 14, 15, 20-27 |
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1865 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:33:51: <ais523> 276 seems out of place because RocketJSquirrel /isn't/ blond, IIRC |
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1866 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:33:55: <ais523> unless it's a weird definition of blond |
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1867 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:35:52: <ais523> elliott: seems to also require an italicised word |
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1868 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:37:55: <elliott> <ais523> elliott: it depends on if you expect we'll get vandals; moves can't be fully reversed by a non-admin, so the reason they're usually disallowed is to prevent vandalism that's disproportionately hard to revert |
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1869 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:38:06: <elliott> ais523: I suppose there's unlikely to be page-move spambots :) |
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1870 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:38:27: <ais523> elliott: indeed, unless they're Esolang-specific |
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1871 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:50:51: <ais523> anyway, bleh at this binary diff thing |
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1872 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:51:08: <ais523> the algorithm as written is still far too slow, also GNU diff doesn't use it despite claiming to |
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1873 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:52:10: <elliott> ais523: Did you try bps? |
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1874 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:52:32: <ais523> I have to write this from scratch, pretty much, NHPL isn't compatible with anything |
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1875 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:52:42: <ais523> /possibly/ two-clause BSD, but I'm not even sure on that one |
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1876 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:53:36: <elliott> ais523: Yes, and? |
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1877 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:54:48: <ais523> I've actually been considering doing something that fits with the format |
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1878 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:55:16: <ais523> by checking what the fixed-length bits and variable-length bits are, and just XORing and RLEing the fixed-length bits |
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1879 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:55:23: <ais523> and doing something clever with the variable-length bits |
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1880 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:58:06: <ais523> elliott: oh, my patch format is that too |
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1881 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:58:12: <ais523> the problem is generating the patch effiicently in the first plcae |
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1882 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:58:14: <ais523> *place |
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1883 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:58:46: <ais523> my format uses two bits for command, six for run length |
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1884 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:59:20: <ais523> the commands are copy, insert, delete, and bignum (for run lengths larger than 63; its runlength is multiplied by 64 and added to the runlength of the next command) |
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1885 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:59:28: <ais523> and insert is followed by the individual bytes to insert |
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1886 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:21:59:53: <ais523> I can generate that format reasonably simply, but not efficiently; O(sn) is too slow in practice |
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1887 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:03:54: <elliott> ais523: meh, that's more complicated than bps :) |
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1888 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:04:18: <ais523> elliott: format simplicity is completely missing the point, anyway |
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1889 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:04:25: <ais523> it's efficiency in finding the diff |
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1890 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:05:06: <ais523> GNU diff seems to do something crazy involving multiple bisections, and finding lines unique to one side or other on the basis that they can't match anything |
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1891 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:06:08: <ais523> and it's way faster than my program, even if I convert all the bytes to hex and put a different one on each line, so it's a fair comparison |
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1892 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:06:22: <pikhq_> ais523: It's quite advantageous for people implementing a patch applier. |
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1893 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:06:42: <ais523> pikhq_: well, right, and I'd need that too |
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1894 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:06:54: <ais523> but the patch applier is going to be O(n) with any sane patch format, unless it's heavily compressed |
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1895 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:07:04: <ais523> so it's the patch determiner I'm worried about the efficiency of |
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1896 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:22:26:47: <elliott> ais523: by the way, I edited two MediaWiki-namespace pages today |
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1897 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:00:17: <elliott> ais523: guess what the norwegian wikipedia's main page is? |
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1898 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:00:33: <ais523> elliott: a matrix of solidity? |
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1899 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:00:43: <elliott> ais523: no, Portal:[en:main -> no] |
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1900 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:01:00: <ais523> elliott: ah, great :) |
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1901 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:02:04: <elliott> ais523: erm, Portal:[en:Home -> no] actually |
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1902 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:02:56: <ais523> this is beginning to sound like a nomic |
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1903 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:39:52: <elliott> ais523: how many people does 82.132.*.* affect? |
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1904 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:40:19: <ais523> elliott: not sure, let me rDNS it |
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1905 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:41:26: <ais523> 82.132.192.0/18, more specifically, is O2 |
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1906 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:41:28: <ais523> the UK ISP |
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1907 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:42:01: <elliott> ais523: hmm. |
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1908 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:42:09: <ais523> not sure if blocking O2 is reasonable, even if most british esolangers use Virgin Media |
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1909 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:42:10: <ais523> elliott: I think so! |
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1910 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:42:28: <elliott> ais523: FSVO "most" equal to 2? :) |
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1911 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:42:36: <ais523> and other people too, because it was wider than just the O2 range |
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1912 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:42:48: <elliott> ais523: yes, but nobody cares about croatia. |
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1913 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:47:10: <elliott> ais523: Shrooms man? |
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1914 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt:23:47:21: <ais523> no! |
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1915 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:33:01: <ais523> what's HashBot trying to do anyway? |
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1916 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:33:14: <ais523> and why would someone spam #esoteric from a phone? |
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1917 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:33:26: <ais523> if it dodges the ban, someone ctcp version it next time it's here |
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1918 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:33:36: <elliott> ais523: it's not a phone |
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1919 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:33:54: <ais523> elliott: it's in the O2 range inside that, though |
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1920 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:33:59: <elliott> ais523: oh, it is? |
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1921 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:34:00: <ais523> and you were on a phon when you were there |
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1922 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:34:03: <ais523> *phone |
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1923 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:34:04: <ais523> yep |
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1924 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:35:01: <ais523> yep |
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1925 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:35:19: <ais523> elliott: no, the narrow range too |
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1926 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:39:16: <ais523> itidus21: that'd be SendQ exceeded |
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1927 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:39:32: <ais523> the difference is that excess flood is if you're sending too much for the server, and sendq is if you're trying to make the server send too much back to you |
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1928 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:57:19: <elliott> ais523: you're not meant to be able to move the edit form outside of the content div by supplying MediaWiki with some wikitext to preview, right...? |
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1929 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:00:57:36: <ais523> elliott: not sure, but I guess not |
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1930 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:01:17:27: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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1931 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:32:44: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1932 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:37:25: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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1933 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:37:36: <ais523> hi elliott |
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1934 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:37:45: <ais523> that sounds worrying |
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1935 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:37:52: <ais523> I haven't even been asleep since then! |
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1936 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:38:34: <ais523> actually, I was reading the history in my RSS reader |
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1937 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:38:37: <ais523> which is normally how I read Esolang |
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1938 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:40:20: <elliott> ais523 doesn't know the crime of being wikipsychic :'( |
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1939 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:40:54: <ais523> it was pretty similar on Wikipedia, btw; things rarely took me by surprise because I had a habit of reading the relevant discussion pages |
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1940 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:41:05: <ais523> although obviously I couldn't read every edit to the whole wiki |
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1941 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:45:16: <ais523> it's only Esolang, I don't really care |
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1942 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:45:23: <ais523> well, I sort-of do, but most of my arguments don't apply |
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1943 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:46:54: <ais523> hmm… "don't really" is not actually an absolute opposite of "really" |
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1944 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:51:21: <ais523> it is pretty entertaining, indeed |
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1945 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:51:29: <ais523> although I don't think that's its intended purpose |
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1946 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:52:24: <ais523> clearly you need Jimbo and ArbCom to ban the same person simultaneously and independently |
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1947 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:52:32: <ais523> although I suspect that would simply just leave them with no appeals at all |
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1948 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:57:40: <ais523> "There are 4,507 registered users, but most of them are spambots." |
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1949 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:58:19: <ais523> elliott: hmm, I remember the case where there were community sanctions on someone, and arbcom agreed with them, then later converted them to a simple ban because nobody could figure out what they meant |
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1950 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:59:01: <elliott> ais523: yes, i realise that a 1:4 article:user ratio would be rather unlikely :) |
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1951 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:07:59:16: <ais523> I was just amused at the statistic |
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1952 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:01:47: <elliott> ais523: hey, you have an anonymised google: are we really the top result for "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity."? |
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1953 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:02:15: <ais523> well, it's still probably going to try to geolocate me |
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1954 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:02:45: <ais523> but we are, indeed |
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1955 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:03:07: <ais523> a page about Graue is third, and the logs of this channel are fourth |
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1956 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:03:21: <ais523> none of the other results on that page look relevant |
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1957 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:03:26: <ais523> this is without quotes, btw |
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1958 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:03:32: <ais523> elliott: yes, I guessed it was autogenerated |
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1959 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:03:42: <ais523> btw, have you looked at the link in the topic? |
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1960 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:03:46: <ais523> not the logs link, the other one |
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1961 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:04:01: <ais523> but I have |
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1962 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:04:03: <ais523> and it isn't |
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1963 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:05:47: <ais523> it had been there for a while |
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1964 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:06:02: <ais523> and I trust Gregor to that extent |
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1965 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:06:20: <ais523> I mean, he could just as easily put warez and pornography on codu.org |
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1966 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:06:25: <ais523> well, maybe not quite as easily |
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1967 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:12:01: <elliott> ais523: btw, *did* you have any comments on the featured language process, or are you still reading the changes? |
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1968 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:12:16: <ais523> elliott: meh |
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1969 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:12:50: <elliott> ais523: i made the best of a bad situation :P |
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1970 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:13:27: <elliott> ais523: btw, you need to propose [[Deadfish]] as a candidate. |
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1971 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:13:53: <ais523> no! |
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1972 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:14:25: <elliott> ais523: what?! |
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1973 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:14:54: <ais523> yes! |
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1974 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:15:05: <ais523> are /you/ saying @lang isn't the greatest programming language ever designed? |
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1975 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:15:16: -!- ais523 has parted #esoteric ("before someone mentions Feather"). |
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1976 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:15:55: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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1977 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:08:16:13: <elliott> ais523: anyway, no, @lang is just the least _sucky_ |
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1978 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:27:59: <elliott> ais523: helpful tip to write a wikipedia article about yourself: make three copies of the exact same article with different content, one of which will be deleted as copyvio, contest the speedying of only one of the remaining ones, then post it as a new section on [[Talk:Main Page]] once they get deleted |
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1979 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:28:25: <ais523> I don't think that would work :) |
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1980 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:28:43: <ais523> did someone just try that on Wikipedia? or on Esolang? |
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1981 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:29:24: <ais523> elliott: it's usual to send three scary warnings in response to that |
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1982 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:29:33: <ais523> I'm not sure if it's /correct/, or even if there's a point |
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1983 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:29:35: <ais523> but it's usual |
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1984 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:29:45: <ais523> yes but it's like three clicks in Twinkle! |
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1985 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:31:29: <ais523> there is something kind of horrifyingly awesome about that |
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1986 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:31:38: <ais523> lowercase p on "Main page"? wouldn't uppercase be better? |
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1987 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:31:55: <ais523> note that we'll still need a redirect from the old location pretty much forever |
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1988 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:31:58: <elliott> ais523: the sidebar entry is "Main page", and the default community portal page was changed to [[Project:Community portal]] |
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1989 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:32:17: <ais523> fair enough |
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1990 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:32:39: <ais523> my suggestion on Wikipedia was "Portal:Main", but "Esolang:Main" doesn't make sense |
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1991 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:33:04: <ais523> actually, my real preferred solution was to rename it to the null string |
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1992 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:33:09: <ais523> but apparently MediaWiki doesn't support that |
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1993 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:33:48: <ais523> it's kind-of ugly even without the Esolang: |
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1994 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:37:17: <ais523> and it fails with any other PHPSESSID? |
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1995 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:37:28: <ais523> or just redirects you to the correct one :) |
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1996 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:37:28: <elliott> ais523: naturally; load.pl is a load balancer |
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1997 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:37:35: <elliott> ais523: the PHPSESSID is the session of the proxy server |
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1998 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:38:14: <ais523> elliott: gah, we have a debugger like that that we're using for our GPU programming |
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1999 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:38:26: <ais523> only one person across the whole department can debug a GPU program at a time |
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2000 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:38:43: <ais523> not a licensing restriction, it's a complicated technical restriction |
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2001 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:38:56: <ais523> I guess you could use screen or something to do that |
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2002 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:43:10: <ais523> this gives you a perfect excuse to procrastinate! |
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2003 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:43:38: <ais523> elliott: oh, . is string concatenation there? |
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2004 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:43:49: <ais523> I thought it was method invocation for a moment |
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2005 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:43:54: <ais523> which would have been awesome but worrying |
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2006 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:44:24: <ais523> now I want a language that lets you call methods ? and isn't Smalltalk-like |
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2007 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:44:33: <ais523> (doing it in Smalltalk is too easy) |
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2008 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:44:37: <ais523> I guess JavaScript does |
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2009 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:45:03: <ais523> and Lua lets you define them, but I'm not sure offhand if there's any way to call them |
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2010 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:53:08: -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). |
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2011 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:53:11: -!- ais523_ has joined #esoteric. |
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2012 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:53:45: -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523. |
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2013 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:53:48: <ais523> how can you tell? |
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2014 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:53:53: <elliott> ais523: http://conservapedia.com/Special:Version |
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2015 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:54:03: <ais523> also, I'm guessing you somehow managed to make all links not show up? or edited them out of the page? |
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2016 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:57:43: <elliott> ais523: hey, when's Eurovision? |
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2017 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:57:53: <ais523> I don't know; Wikipedia probably does |
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2018 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:57:55: <ais523> it's a good question |
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2019 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:58:21: <ais523> 26 may is the final |
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2020 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:58:26: <ais523> 22 and 24 may are the semifinals |
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2021 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:58:29: <ais523> just looked it up |
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2022 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:58:42: <elliott> ais523: Thanks, I was looking for a FINNISH QUALITY ANSWER though. |
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2023 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:58:53: <ais523> it's after NetHack Apocalypse Day, which I really need to prepare for |
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2024 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:59:16: <ais523> elliott: it's a secret that isn't really all that secret, and I invented the name for it just now |
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2025 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:59:25: <ais523> but we're planning it for april 1 so that nobody believes it when it happens |
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2026 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:10:59:32: <ais523> and so that we can back out of it really easily |
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2027 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:00:02: <ais523> (fun fact: you can back out of pretty much anything that isn't illegal if you do it on april 1) |
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2028 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:00:13: <elliott> ais523: nitrohack is being released as nethack 4.0.0? |
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2029 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:00:43: <ais523> yes, but it's more complex than that |
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2030 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:00:49: <ais523> and requires the coordination of quite a lot of people |
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2031 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:00:57: <elliott> ais523: "...without the devteam's consent"? |
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2032 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:00:59: <ais523> well, 3 |
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2033 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:01:06: <ais523> but that's more than we managed last year |
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2034 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:01:17: <ais523> I haven't even finished merging NiceHack yet, though |
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2035 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:02:53: <ais523> silence of reading another window, pinging me helps if you want a quick answer |
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2036 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:03:21: <ais523> and my solution, unlike daniel_t's, is to say that I'm supporting a small set of platforms to start with just to get something moving, and willing to expand as people willing to test and send in patches are found |
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2037 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:03:37: <ais523> this viewpoint is actually probably equivalent to his, but less controversial |
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2038 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:04:15: <ais523> oh, we're not getting their consent for this |
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2039 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:04:41: <ais523> you know what we really need? someone at Debian to mistake it for not an april fool's thing and package it up |
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2040 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:07:07: <ais523> they package INTERCAL! |
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2041 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:07:41: <ais523> and as long as it hits testing with the new major version, they can't subsequently reduce the major version number |
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2042 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:07:55: <ais523> they'd either have to add a majorer version number to let them drop it back down to 3.4.3, or lie and call it 4.4.3 or something |
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2043 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:08:02: <ais523> well, OK |
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2044 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:10:19: <ais523> we might go onto a coup |
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2045 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:10:24: <ais523> if the april 1 thing is well-received |
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2046 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:12:51: <elliott> ais523: Can you fix this hook? |
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2047 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:13:03: <ais523> it's in PHP, so no |
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2048 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:13:10: <ais523> not in my current state of tiredness |
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2049 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:16:05: <elliott> ais523: tell past elliott he's a moron |
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2050 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:16:30: <ais523> elliott: I'm no good at retroactive IRC |
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2051 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:21:08: <ais523> for any particular reason? or by mistake? |
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2052 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:22:58: <elliott> ais523: oh dear, now I'm getting annoyed at /w/ URLs too |
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2053 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:38:11: <ais523> arguments in a different order, perhaps? |
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2054 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:39:30: <ais523> they aren't really globals |
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2055 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:40:16: <ais523> yep |
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2056 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:41:50: <elliott> ais523: btw, the reason /wiki/ was redirecting to /wiki/Main_Page is that I configured nginx to do that |
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2057 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:47:31: <elliott> ais523: fizzie: group-ping |
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2058 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:47:49: <ais523> pong |
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2059 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:49:18: <ais523> hmm, interesting |
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2060 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:50:45: <ais523> well, it's a channel that was spun off in order to deflect away offtopic material |
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2061 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:50:55: <ais523> hmm, does #irp count along the same lines? it's basically just a honeypot for Reddit |
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2062 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:51:23: <ais523> probably just #esoteric |
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2063 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:51:31: <ais523> do we care about #esoteric-offtopic or #esoteric-blah? |
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2064 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:51:31: <elliott> hmm, it asks for your role in the project, and suggests you should be senior; if the URL is esolangs.org, that suggests ais523 should do it |
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2065 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:51:44: <elliott> ais523: i doubt it |
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2066 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:53:36: <elliott> ais523: oh dear, after all that effort, MediaWiki thwarts me |
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2067 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:53:38: <ais523> exploration of insufficiently explored theories of programming language design |
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2068 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:53:52: <ais523> I can make it sound relevant and ontopic when I need to! |
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2069 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:54:03: <ais523> can you patch that check out? |
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2070 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:54:29: <elliott> ais523: also, that's not relevant and on-topic, strictly |
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2071 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:55:03: <ais523> perhaps |
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2072 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:55:11: <ais523> I was thinking from the academic point of view |
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2073 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:56:38: <ais523> elliott: you filling it out seems reasonable, as long as enough of the other people who help to run this channel agree |
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2074 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:56:49: <ais523> based on their rules for who should be primary contact |
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2075 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:56:59: <ais523> besides, it uses recaptcha |
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2076 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:57:14: <elliott> ais523: err, I doubt someone who isn't an op would be considered a good contact |
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2077 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:57:31: <ais523> oh dear… |
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2078 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:57:36: <ais523> and yes, good point |
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2079 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:57:53: <ais523> should probably be fizzie as senior op, then |
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2080 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:58:06: <ais523> oerjan was opped recently enough that chanserv remembers whne it happened, as was I |
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2081 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:58:11: <elliott> ais523: well, the thing is that they use the URL to verify the claim |
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2082 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:58:54: <ais523> don't you need to be a server admin anyway, for the confirmation? |
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2083 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:59:11: <ais523> it's not completely implausible that a community might want separation of powers between their website and IRC channel, though |
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2084 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:59:16: <elliott> ais523: I don't think it's a "put this HTML thing on your website" |
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2085 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:59:56: <elliott> ais523: it would be really convenient to own esoteric.<tld> for this... |
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2086 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:11:59:59: <ais523> perhaps |
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2087 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:00:19: <ais523> if there's a human involved, we can explain easily enough |
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2088 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:01:09: <elliott> ais523: and yes, but this is /freenode/, that'll slow it down by ten years |
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2089 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:01:50: <ais523> who runs the esolang mailing list on sange.fi? and does it still exist? |
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2090 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:04:06: <ais523> elliott: why? |
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2091 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:04:11: <ais523> it'd help avoid confusion |
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2092 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:04:14: <elliott> ais523: because that defeats the whole point? |
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2093 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:04:19: <ais523> what whole point? |
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2094 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:04:30: <ais523> #esolang is probably a better name, come to think of it |
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2095 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:05:02: <ais523> well, esolang is a contraction for "esoteric language", and we thought the language was redundant as we're on Freenode |
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2096 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:06:07: <ais523> elliott: I'm projecting |
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2097 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:08:12: <elliott> ais523: I'm an op now, right? |
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2098 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:08:31: <ais523> too tired to consider the merits of opping or otherwise someone right now |
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2099 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:08:41: <ais523> btw, you're starting to remind me uncomfortably of kerio |
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2100 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:08:47: <shachaf> ais523: Making elliott an op would be the biggest mistake you could ever make. |
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2101 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:08:54: <elliott> ais523: excellent, the less thoughtful you are the more likely you'll op me |
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2102 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:08:56: <ais523> who among other things keeps continuously nagging me to fill out GRFs for AceHack |
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2103 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:09:17: <ais523> he /is/ opped in #acehack, but we have the settings such that he can't deal too much damage |
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2104 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:09:28: <elliott> ais523: I thought AceHack was busy being deconstructed |
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2105 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:09:31: <ais523> group registration form |
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2106 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:09:46: <ais523> elliott: it's being merged with nitrohack, which is typically discussed in #unnethack (and sometimes #acehack) |
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2107 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:09:55: <ais523> but channels all have their own communities |
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2108 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:10:16: <ais523> #unnethack's become the de-facto channel for discussing variants as a set (as opposed to particular variants) |
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2109 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:10:49: <ais523> haha, there is, but nobody's there but kerio |
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2110 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:11:10: <ais523> and #grunthack was created really recently, mostly to have a place to put the announcebot |
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2111 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:11:33: <elliott> ais523: am I an op yet? |
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2112 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:08: <elliott> it says yes ais523 |
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2113 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:15: <ais523> elliott: you can ask chanserv, probably faster than getting a response from me |
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2114 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:21: <shachaf> ais523: Make elliott a nop. |
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2115 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:22: <ais523> shachaf: please tell me you just registered that :) |
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2116 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:29: <elliott> but it also says ais523 has to make me into an op before i can use it |
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2117 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:53: <ais523> No match for "ISELLIOTTANOPYET.COM". |
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2118 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:12:57: <shachaf> ais523: Nope, it's free. |
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2119 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:34: <ais523> `quote |
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2120 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:36: <ais523> `quote |
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2121 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:37: <ais523> `quote |
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2122 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:39: <ais523> `quote |
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2123 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:40: <ais523> `quote |
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2124 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:47: <HackEgo> 92) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future |
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2125 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:51: <ais523> shall I delete a good one to make room for it? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2126 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:13:55: <HackEgo> 449) <ais523> the thing about modern semiconductor design is, 0s are more powerful as 1s |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2127 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:14:06: <ais523> gah, I meant "than 1s" |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2128 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:14:21: <ais523> OK, I agree with that |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2129 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:14:26: <ais523> deleting 86, that is |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2130 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:15:00: <ais523> also, 92 is /my/ pet 825 |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2131 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:15:07: <ais523> shachaf: it's numbered 825 now |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2132 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:15:37: <ais523> elliott: does that actually go back 105 revisions? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2133 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:15:42: <elliott> ais523: no, it goes back to revision 105 |
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2134 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:15:45: <ais523> ah, OK |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2135 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:16:39: <ais523> `touch UNDELETE.EXE |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2136 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:17:38: <ais523> `run echo now this file will be strangely hard to empty completely >> canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2137 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:17:44: <ais523> although not really /that/ hard |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2138 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:18:20: <ais523> fun fact: the only reason canary was empty beforehand was that it used to say that and someone decided to test it |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2139 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:18:24: <ais523> (note: may not be a true fact) |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2140 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:21:00: <ais523> `cat canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2141 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:21:17: <ais523> I think we need something in there about a canary's typical reaction to a cat (which is based on a cat's typical reaction to a canary) |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2142 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:21:28: <ais523> `rm canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2143 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:21:36: <ais523> `cat canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2144 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:21:41: <ais523> still is |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2145 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:21:44: <ais523> can't delete canary :) |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2146 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:22:13: <ais523> `run rm canary && mkdir canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2147 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:22:19: <ais523> `cat canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2148 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:22:30: <ais523> huh? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2149 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:22:33: <elliott> ais523: hg doesn't track empty directories |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2150 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:22:49: <ais523> `cat foo |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2151 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:22:58: <ais523> awesome |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2152 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:23:35: <ais523> elliott: isn't he called RocketJSquirrel? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2153 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:23:39: <elliott> @tell Gregor http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-19#122213ais523 |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2154 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:23:43: * ais523 demands he changes back to Friendship |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2155 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:24:23: <ais523> I was wondering about doing that, but decided against it |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2156 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:24:49: <shachaf> ais523: Is ais523 your real name? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2157 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:24:51: <ais523> you know that at least one of those is very likely to end up ending with no messages? |
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2158 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:24:57: <ais523> shachaf: what do you consider to be a real name? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2159 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:25:03: <elliott> ais523: the idea is that all of them get cleared |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2160 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:25:06: <shachaf> ais523: Or is your real name "(this is obviously not my real name)"? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2161 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:25:12: <shachaf> ais523: How should I know? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2162 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:25:16: <ais523> shachaf: that obviously isn't my real name |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2163 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:26:02: <ais523> did I say they were the same? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2164 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:26:28: <ais523> and did I say that you said that I said they were the same? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2165 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:27:13: <ais523> `pastlog you said that I said |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2166 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:27:17: <ais523> now we have to check! |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2167 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:27:54: <ais523> shachaf: I don't think I've ever talked to you in not-public |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2168 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:28:05: <ais523> oh, apparently I have |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2169 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:28:12: <ais523> just the one line, though |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2170 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:28:18: <ais523> it was related to #vacuum |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2171 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:28:41: <ais523> gah, literal facepalm |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2172 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:29:10: <ais523> elliott: did you just tell shachaf to persuade me to go there without telling him what it was called? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2173 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:29:18: <ais523> because according to client history, he never mentioned the nam |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2174 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:29:20: <ais523> *name |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2175 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:29:24: <ais523> admittedly, that would be hilarious |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2176 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:29:28: <elliott> ais523: I have no idea what you're talking about. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2177 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:29:52: * ais523 is unsure if he wants to believe that |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2178 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:30:17: <ais523> indeed it is registered; ChanServ wouldn't let me see its access list |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2179 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:30:24: <ais523> which implies that someone owns it to be able to configure it to do that |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2180 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:31:22: <ais523> elliott: remember #<redacted>? it was agora-related, also it wasn't a cow, nor not a cow |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2181 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:31:42: <elliott> ais523: FUCK YOU RUINED MY FUCKING TOWER JEEZ |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2182 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:31:47: <elliott> ais523: Does it start with an a and end with an oecabal? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2183 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:31:51: <ais523> yes |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2184 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:32:07: <elliott> ais523: apointlessshoecabal? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2185 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:32:07: <ais523> it's almost as locked-down as #vacuum nowadays |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2186 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:32:15: <ais523> perhaps |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2187 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:48:26: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2188 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:49:26: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2189 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:51:20: <ais523> oh, btw, CFJ 2613 was awesome |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2190 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:51:28: <ais523> such a pity the judge didn't take it seriously |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2191 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:12:57:41: <oerjan> elliott: you do realize ais523 is also an op? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2192 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:08:56: <elliott> ais523: HE PROPOSED RELAXING THE POLICY |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2193 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:09:11: <ais523> elliott: calm down! |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2194 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:09:31: <ais523> clearly, it should be [[Tanner L. Swett]] |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2195 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:10:48: <elliott> ais523: it would actually be [[Ivan Hope Stupidromannumerals]] |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2196 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:11:38: <ais523> wait, you mean it isn't his real name? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2197 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:15:47: * ais523 suggests an FAC |
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2198 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:01: <elliott> ais523: /an/? |
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2199 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:05: <ais523> elliott: hmm, isn't the article about Graue at [[Catatonic Porpoise]] |
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2200 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:10: <elliott> ais523: hey, you broke the rules! |
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2201 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:15: <ais523> elliott: "an" is correct if you don't expand the acronym |
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2202 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:18: <ais523> and in what way? |
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2203 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:28: <elliott> ais523: oh, oops |
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2204 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:33: <elliott> ais523: correction, I wrote the rules wrong |
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2205 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:16:46: <ais523> so go fix them |
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2206 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:17:05: <ais523> elliott: what did you intend to make a rule that you didn't? |
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2207 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:18:09: <ais523> elliott: oh, you did omit the signature; I went and edited the rules to require it when I made the suggestion >:) |
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2208 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:18:20: <elliott> oerjan: kick ais523, pls |
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2209 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:18:45: <ais523> elliott: how else can someone quickly check that they haven't nominated a different language? |
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2210 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:18:52: <ais523> we can delete the sigs before judging |
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2211 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:18:57: <elliott> ais523: but they could just fake a signature! |
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2212 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:20:20: <elliott> ais523: btw, since you weren't around for the discussion, I came up with this system so that (a) people didn't have to suggest things _regularly_ i.e. there's no point expiring something just because it was proposed and not chosen last $timespan, |
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2213 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:20:48: <ais523> elliott: indeed |
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2214 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:21:03: <ais523> anyway, I think it's worth having all the paradigm classics featured that aren't brainfuck |
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2215 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:21:33: <ais523> heh, indeed |
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2216 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:22:35: <elliott> ais523: I agree that paradigm classics should be featured, but I also think devoting the first like 7 timespans to the classics would be a bad idea |
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2217 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:25:36: <elliott> ais523: oerjan: perhaps we should feature [[Esme]] sometime. |
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2218 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:32:48: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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2219 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:35:30: <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: oerjan: perhaps we should feature [[Esme]] sometime. <-- er.... |
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2220 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:38:51: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2221 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:39:57: <ais523> not sure |
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2222 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:40:03: <ais523> I'm not even convinced it was intended as a tarpit |
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2223 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:40:16: <ais523> (especially given that it has several instructions that are clearly redundant, like i and v) |
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2224 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:40:26: <ais523> it was just intended as a functional language without lambda |
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2225 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:40:31: <ais523> a job which it succeeds at admirably |
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2226 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:43:10: <ais523> yep, and I might add a section on programming in it (or rather, relambda) |
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2227 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:47:29: <elliott> ais523: thanks for that fix, the process used to be on the featured languages page itsel |
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2228 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:48:13: <ais523> have the Pirate Bay decided that what they're doing is actually illegal yet? or are they just wondering why the police keep trying to shut them down? |
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2229 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:49:27: <fizzie> ais523: "We think that the investigation is interesting considering nothing that TPB does is illegal." --2012-03-09 |
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2230 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:49:37: <ais523> and that's pretty recent |
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2231 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:50:12: <elliott> ais523: btw, why is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Featured_languages empty? [[:///]] is in it |
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2232 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:50:13: <ais523> elliott: oh, I don't think they're doing anything illegal either; and yet people are trying so hard to get rid of them |
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2233 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:50:43: <elliott> ais523: well, the torrents they offer nowadays are DHT-based. |
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2234 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:50:50: <ais523> that's bizarre |
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2235 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:50:52: <elliott> ais523: you can't raid a distributed hash table. |
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2236 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:51:35: <elliott> ais523: if it matters, the category is from a template |
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2237 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:51:45: <ais523> oh, that /might/ matter |
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2238 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:51:49: <ais523> are you running the job queue? |
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2239 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:52:42: <ais523> it's normally the job queue that's responsible for category updates via templates |
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2240 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:53:24: <ais523> fixed it, anyway, by null-editing the page |
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2241 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:53:41: <ais523> (just load the edit view, then click "save changes" without doing anything) |
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2242 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:54:02: <ais523> (that regenerates the page in a stronger way than merely purging does) |
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2243 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:59:22: <elliott> ais523: Kick shachaf. |
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2244 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:13:59:41: <ais523> elliott: it was quite a good joke… |
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2245 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:14:08:57: <elliott> ais523: Are you going to kick shachaf or not? |
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2246 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:14:18:46: <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 55m 5s ago: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-19#122213ais523 |
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2247 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:14:20:23: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). |
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2248 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:14:27:33: <oerjan> 08:15:16: -!- ais523 has parted #esoteric ("before someone mentions Feather"). |
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2249 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:14:27:33: <oerjan> 08:15:55: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2250 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:15:59:10: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2251 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:16:34:30: <ais523> quintopia: ion: are you in the same class somehow? |
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2252 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-19.txt:16:35:40: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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2253 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:05:20: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2254 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:05:59: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2255 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:06:11: <ais523> hi elliott |
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2256 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:06:27: <shachaf> `welcome ais523 |
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2257 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:06:36: <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page |
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2258 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:08:30: <elliott> `unwelcome ais523 |
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2259 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:09:06: <shachaf> "your not welcome in here, ais523" -- elliott "hi" elliott |
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2260 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:09:46: <shachaf> ais523: Ban me from this channel! |
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2261 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:55:31: <elliott> shachaf: ais523: fizzie: pikhq_: ping |
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2262 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:56:21: <ais523> checking |
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2263 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:56:25: <ais523> no |
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2264 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:56:49: <ais523> ah, it has loaded |
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2265 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:56:51: <ais523> but pretty slowly |
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2266 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:57:03: <ais523> and it's working now |
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2267 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:57:25: <ais523> looks like it was some sort of DNS glitch |
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2268 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:57:44: <ais523> try a couple of other servers |
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2269 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:57:49: <ais523> DNS servers, that is |
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2270 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:57:54: <ais523> dig @8.8.8.8, dig @4.2.2.1 |
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2271 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:58:43: <ais523> 8.8.8.8 (Google), gave me the right answer straight away, 4.2.2.1 (Level3) took a while then returned no IP |
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2272 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:08:59:18: <ais523> <Level3> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 7188 |
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2273 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:08:36: <ais523> C++ has rather stricter rules on pointers than C does |
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2274 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:08:45: <ais523> I'm not offhand sure whether it lets you cast anything into a void* or not |
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2275 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:28:02: <elliott> ais523: holy crap, the categories list at the bottom of MediaWiki pages is in source order |
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2276 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:28:09: <elliott> ais523: I assumed it'd sort them... |
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2277 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:28:24: <ais523> it's more flexible this way, you can order them by hand |
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2278 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:28:37: <ais523> presumably there's an AWB plugin for sorting them, and a huge row about whether people should use it or not |
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2279 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:28:41: <elliott> ais523: how is that flexibility useful? |
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2280 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:28:50: <ais523> you are missing the point of MediaWiki! |
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2281 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:29:16: <ais523> I think it's used to put [[Category:Living people]] first, though |
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2282 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:29:47: <elliott> ais523: IMO, that should be done by allowing you to establish relations between _categories_ |
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2283 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:30:26: <ais523> did you know that not only can you, in an article, choose where the category goes in the list of categories on the article, but also where the article goes in the list of articles on the category? |
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2284 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:32:59: <ais523> zzo38: indeed |
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2285 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:33:44: <elliott> ais523: speaking of bots, how hellish is pywikipediabot? |
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2286 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:34:22: <ais523> not as bad as rolling your own library, although last I looked it used scraping rather than the API |
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2287 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:34:26: <ais523> perhaps it's been fixed to use the API since |
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2288 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:37:41: <elliott> ais523: err, apparently [[Category:Living people]] exists only for BLP monitoring |
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2289 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:37:54: <ais523> elliott: indeed, that's its purpose |
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2290 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:38:06: <ais523> but it's so important when editing something |
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2291 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:38:10: <ais523> by policy |
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2292 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:38:30: <ais523> Wikipedia isn't really aimed at readers, because they don't make the decisions… |
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2293 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:09:40:20: <ais523> yes! |
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2294 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:12:06: -!- ais523_ has joined #esoteric. |
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2295 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:23:07: -!- ais523_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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2296 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:44:11: -!- ais523_ has joined #esoteric. |
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2297 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:44:37: <ais523_> !glogbot_ignore so am I online now? |
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2298 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:44:43: <ais523_> yay |
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2299 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:44:52: <ais523_> (!glogbot_ignore: good ping, or the best ping?) |
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2300 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:46:52: <elliott> ais523_: no |
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2301 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:47:28: <elliott> ais523_: Now, er, how much do you know about table styling? |
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2302 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:48:30: <ais523_> not a huge amount |
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2303 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:55:06: <elliott> ais523_: by the way, I thought of an obvious criterion for the spam user deletion script I missed |
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2304 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:55:17: <ais523_> go on |
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2305 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:55:41: <elliott> ais523_: "has an entry in the block log matching %spam%" (note: this is different from "is currently blocked with that entry") |
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2306 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:55:57: <ais523_> ah, of course |
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2307 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:56:08: <ais523_> what about "has a 24-year block"? |
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2308 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:56:21: <ais523_> for when the reason was typoed or not given? |
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2309 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:56:38: <ais523_> although you'll need to check fake-lament on that |
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2310 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:57:10: * ais523_ thinks it's vaguely weird to be on a wiki that's had exactly one vandal |
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2311 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:58:06: <ais523_> no "spma" or "spa," or whatever? |
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2312 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:10:58:24: <elliott> ais523_: oh, probably (although not "spma", at least), but we can delete users manually after-the-fact |
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2313 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:00:09: <elliott> ais523_: haha, wow: (show/hide) 06:13, 28 September 2005 Graue (Talk | contribs | block) blocked 69.50.165.186 (Talk) with an expiry time of 24 years (probably a spammer testing to see if shit gets deleted here) (unblock | change block) |
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2314 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:00:22: <elliott> ais523_: they were blocked for creating [[Esolang:Sandbox]] with "Hello" |
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2315 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:02:54: <elliott> ais523_: also, I'm wondering if lament-impersonator isn't actually lament themselves |
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2316 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:04:30: <elliott> ais523_: it seems it happened when IRP was on reddit |
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2317 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:14:41: <elliott> ais523_: wow, the query is really good now |
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2318 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:15:41: <elliott> ais523_: (actually, I'm more surprised there were 3043 matches before adding the log entry criterion) |
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2319 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:16:18: <elliott> I get the feeling ais523_ isn't here |
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2320 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:22:08: <elliott> ais523_: fun fact: nobody has ever been unblocked on esolang |
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2321 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:40:41: <elliott> ais523: ais523_: another criterion I just thought of: only contribution is to own user or user talk page, which has been deleted |
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2322 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:11:40:53: <elliott> ais523: ais523_: (keymaker has deleted lots, but never filled out a reason) |
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2323 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:12:02:33: <ais523_> I've been with students all this time |
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2324 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:12:59:20: <ais523_> so, esolang idea inspired by one of my students' code: a language that ignores expressions |
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2325 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:12:59:45: <ais523_> as in, it's vaguely C-like, but if(x>3) and if(y>4) mean the same thing |
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2326 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:12:59:58: <ais523_> you can write conditionals, but not choose what they're conditionalling on |
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2327 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:02:07: <elliott> ais523_: did you see what I said about the first user ever blocked on esolang, btw? |
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2328 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:02:59: <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: haha, wow: (show/hide) 06:13, 28 September 2005 Graue (Talk | contribs | block) blocked 69.50.165.186 (Talk) with an expiry time of 24 years (probably a spammer testing to see if shit gets deleted here) (unblock | change block) |
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2329 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:02:59: <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: they were blocked for creating [[Esolang:Sandbox]] with "Hello" |
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2330 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:04:27: <ais523_> I did |
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2331 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:04:48: <ais523_> and you can just edit [[Project:Sandbox]] on any MediaWiki wiki, it'll be translated to the appropriate alternative |
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2332 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:05:05: <elliott> ais523_: I rather doubt spambots are doing that, either |
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2333 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:05:17: <ais523_> anyway, Coq requires your programs to be proved correct, much like Agda |
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2334 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:05:27: <ais523_> so it's rather harder to program in than Haskell |
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2335 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:05:35: <elliott> ais523_: your first statement is completely false (and also nonsensical) |
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2336 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:05:45: <ais523_> well, yes |
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2337 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:05:50: <ais523_> but /if/ it made sense, it would be true |
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2338 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:06:06: <elliott> ais523_: I doubt it |
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2339 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:06:16: <ais523_> (note: I've been awake for quite a while, you can expect me to make no sense) |
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2340 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:07:30: <ais523_> yes |
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2341 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:07:33: <ais523_> admittedly, not by much |
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2342 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:07:48: <ais523_> also, I'm usually tired |
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2343 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:09:27: -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). |
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2344 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:12:14: <ais523_> bleh, that's the wireless malfunctioning again |
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2345 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:12:18: <ais523_> alternatively, someone stealing my laptop |
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2346 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:13:59: <elliott> ais523_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox |
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2347 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:20:03: <ais523_> ^ul ((oerjan: )S:^):^ |
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2348 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:20:21: <ais523_> if you're going to recursively ping someone, do it properly |
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2349 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:21:43: <oerjan> ^bf >[,>]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!ais523_: |
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2350 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:22:13: <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>]!ais523_: |
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2351 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:22:13: <fungot> ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ais523_: ... |
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2352 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:22:58: <ais523_> I was about to ask, for any particular reason |
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2353 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:23:01: <ais523_> but I think you answered for me |
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2354 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:25:14: <ais523_> fizzie: but we're reusing them anyway |
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2355 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:25:56: <ais523_> but the (oerjan) is being :ed in both cases |
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2356 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:26:17: <ais523_> just it's inside another program in one of the cases) |
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2357 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:26:35: <ais523_> (great things about English #50: it even lets you verb punctuation marks) |
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2358 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:27:01: <elliott> ais523_: I think Swedish does that better, they have an actual separator |
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2359 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:27:14: <ais523_> how many languages allow s/// constructs, with that name? |
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2360 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:27:26: <ais523_> it might be more fun to link each word of "everybody seems to be doing" to a different language |
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2361 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:27:32: <ais523_> but that would mean finding five of them |
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2362 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:28:19: <ais523_> thue uses the ::= syntax |
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2363 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:28:34: <elliott> ais523_: perl, sed, ed (I think) |
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2364 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:33:52: <elliott> ais523_: hey, mind if I move [[Template:Featured language]] to [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]] and [[Template:Featured]] to [[Template:Featured language]]? |
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2365 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:47:25: <ais523_> elliott: I don't mind |
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2366 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:47:38: <ais523_> (remember that you can transclude non-templates) |
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2367 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:48:08: <elliott> ais523_: obviously, or I wouldn't move {{featured language}} to [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]], it'd break the main page :) |
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2368 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:48:19: <ais523_> elliott: fun fact: did you know that templates weren't actually added to MediaWiki intentionally? |
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2369 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:48:34: <elliott> ais523_: you originally transcluded interface messages |
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2370 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:48:44: <ais523_> yes, for internationalisation purposes |
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2371 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:48:50: <elliott> ais523_: I know this because I read a comment where you explained it |
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2372 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:49:08: <ais523_> and people realised you could put arbitrary stuff in MediaWiki: space even though the software ignored it |
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2373 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:49:15: <ais523_> and make it think you were internationalising messages |
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2374 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:49:22: <ais523_> and that's how templates came about |
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2375 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:49:29: <elliott> ais523_: it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_November_18#Template:Tooltip-article i read it at |
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2376 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:49:42: <ais523_> ah, OK |
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2377 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:49:56: <ais523_> I'm one of the few people to ever have successfully MfDed a MediaWiki:-space page |
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2378 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:50:09: <ais523_> I followed it up by speedying one, I think |
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2379 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:50:40: <elliott> Comment I've posted the MfD now. Wow, that's the second time I've MfD'd a MediaWiki: page... --ais523 10:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC) |
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2380 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:50:55: <ais523_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Tooltip-article |
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2381 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:51:00: <ais523_> bleh, you beat me to it |
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2382 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:51:47: <ais523_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki:Block_compress_delete |
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2383 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:51:54: <elliott> ais523_: err, does this person realise you're talking about a MediaWiki-space page? |
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2384 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:52:06: <ais523_> they probably did, and were intentionally-ignoring the fact |
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2385 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:53:46: <ais523_> you wouldn't get huge breakage, just lots of messages being less customized |
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2386 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:54:18: <ais523_> hmm, it's fun to see that in 2006, I wasn't sure what deleting an interface message would do and neither was anyone else |
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2387 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:54:22: <ais523_> and in 2007, I was explaining it to them |
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2388 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:54:48: <elliott> ais523_: you asked if sandbox edits show up in the "edit log" on [[Esolang:Sandbox]] in 2006 |
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2389 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:55:25: <ais523_> heh |
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2390 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:56:12: <ais523_> meanwhile, you might enjoy this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/MediaWiki: |
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2391 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:56:20: <ais523_> it's how I found the relevant MfDs |
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2392 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:13:57:41: -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). |
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2393 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:31:17: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2394 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:31:37: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2395 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:31:59: <ais523> try saving and restoring twice |
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2396 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:34:13: <elliott> ais523: what? |
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2397 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:34:37: <ais523> I was in the mood for a non sequitur |
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2398 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:47:47: <elliott> ais523: hey, can you fix CSS so it supports negative paddings? |
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2399 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:48:14: <ais523> no |
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2400 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:48:26: <ais523> would a negative margin work for whatever you're trying to do? |
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2401 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:55:46: <ais523> elliott: oh, I fixed my binary diff problem with a bit of out-of-the-box thinking |
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2402 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:56:30: <ais523> I got the save code to remember, for each thing it wrote out, what it was writing out (with an identifier that wouldn't change over time and was unique for each bit of the save file), and which byte in the save file it started |
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2403 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:56:42: <ais523> then I compare the files by comparing the tags and going byte-by-byte from there |
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2404 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:56:48: <ais523> if you believe hashtables to be O(1), it's O(n) |
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2405 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:57:10: <ais523> and leads to a diff format that has commands seek, copy, edit |
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2406 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:58:38: <ais523> I'm not even convinced it's an awful hack… |
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2407 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:14:59:46: <ais523> in my case, it's O(n^2) in the limit because I use a linked list upon hash collisions, but O(n) throughout the file sizes that actually happen in practice |
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2408 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:15:00:53: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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2409 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:15:13:51: <oerjan> although with ais523 and Taneb snatching the very two languages i was considering instead... |
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2410 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-20.txt:18:29:39: <elliott> In my defence, ais523 added that signature when adding his entry without updating the rest of the instructions. |
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2411 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:09:55:01: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2412 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:09:56:52: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2413 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:09:56:58: <ais523> hi |
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2414 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:23:23: <ais523> fizzie: uppercase ß is SS |
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2415 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:27:04: <fizzie> ais523: Sure, but that's just boring. The thing kmc linked to is much better, and in fact a bit like whatI thought it'd be. |
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2416 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:27:35: <elliott> ais523: Ss, no? |
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2417 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:27:39: <ais523> I accidentally discovered there was such a thing as uppercase schwa recently |
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2418 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:27:46: <ais523> elliott: hmm, debatable; I've seen SS more commonly |
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2419 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:58:16: <ais523> elliott: fun fact: Verity turned out to have capability security by accident |
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2420 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:10:58:21: <ais523> we didn't put it in there deliberately, it just happened |
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2421 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:00:00: <elliott> ais523: haha |
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2422 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:00:18: <elliott> ais523: well, capability security is more about /not/ doing certain things, really |
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2423 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:00:41: <ais523> want to light up an LED? someone has to pass you a function that lets you do that |
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2424 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:01:01: <ais523> we have a linker where you just do "import <library>" and it'll automatically set up the required calls behind the scenes, though |
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2425 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:03:25: <elliott> ais523: hey, what's the equivalent of "bibliography" for programming languages? |
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2426 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:03:57: <ais523> hmm, what exactly do you mean by that? I can think of two possible meanings and am having problems expressing either of them |
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2427 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:05:03: <ais523> oh, that wasn't either of them |
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2428 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:05:14: <ais523> we can go with catseye's version, I think |
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2429 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:06:37: <elliott> ais523: (I realised [[Chris Pressey]] should probably have a comprehensive list of the languages we have articles on) |
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2430 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:06:46: <ais523> indeed |
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2431 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:11:55: <ais523> seriously? |
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2432 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:12:02: <ais523> admittedly, I like Homespring and Muriel too |
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2433 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:12:38: <ais523> actually, I should start using Homespring rather than Haifu as an example of a good thematic language |
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2434 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:12:44: <ais523> they both are, but Homespring is better |
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2435 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:12:50: <ais523> well, HOMESPRING |
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2436 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:12:56: <ais523> it's an acronym, after all |
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2437 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:13:10: <elliott> ais523: no, HOtMEfSPRIbNG |
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2438 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:13:19: <ais523> that's the expanded version |
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2439 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:14:49: <ais523> how bizarre |
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2440 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:15:07: <ais523> there's also documentation in the esoteric files archive, though |
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2441 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:15:26: <ais523> nah, it's hilarious |
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2442 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:20:04: <ais523> elliott: what are Linux DEs like nowadays? |
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2443 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:20:31: <elliott> ais523: which ones? |
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2444 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:20:37: <ais523> any of them |
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2445 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:20:44: <ais523> I'm still on Gnome 2, but I'm going to have to upgrade eventually |
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2446 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:20:52: <ais523> and am wondering if there are any I'll find usable |
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2447 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:21:04: <ais523> (note: I consider Windows 7 usable; not on default settings, but it only requires small changes) |
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2448 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:21:50: <ais523> pity, I was rather hoping they would |
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2449 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:22:03: <ais523> or at least, that someone had got gnome-panel working properly in gnome 3 |
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2450 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:22:08: <ais523> that's what I'd want, really |
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2451 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:22:30: <elliott> ais523: gnome 3 does have a gnome-panel, the "fallback" mode |
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2452 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:22:34: <ais523> keep the applications, use the old window manager and panel application |
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2453 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:22:38: <ais523> yep, I'd heard that |
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2454 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:22:52: <ais523> crazy idea: is it possible to use gnome 2's gnome-panel in gnome 3? |
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2455 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:23:39: <ais523> I guess I'll try Unity first, and probably decide I don't like it |
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2456 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:23:42: <ais523> and then KDE |
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2457 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:24:20: <elliott> ais523: why not just try Xfce first? |
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2458 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:24:52: <ais523> I guess trying the options that you expect not to succeed first is likely to produce a better decision in the end |
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2459 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:25:02: <ais523> also note that I used an earlier version of KDE 4 for a while |
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2460 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:25:07: <ais523> and it was mostly usable |
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2461 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:33:50: <ais523> a fail isn't really quite the same thing as an exception, although they're similar |
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2462 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:33:55: <ais523> and a cut is not the same thing as an exception at all |
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2463 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:34:05: <ais523> and a nonlocal cut is not at all related |
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2464 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:35:59: <ais523> it's possible to implement fails as exceptions |
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2465 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:36:18: <ais523> I was showing my students how to do that in Java, for if they wanted to write a parser that wasn't LL(1) |
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2466 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:36:40: <ais523> (which was a surprisingly possible thing, as they had to write a parser, and had been shown how to write LL(1) parsers which was sufficient for the exercise) |
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2467 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:42:48: <ais523> hagb4rd: don't all error handling mechanisms do that? |
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2468 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:11:59:10: <ais523> oh right, I forgot about the antipattern where when anything goes wrong, you print it to stdout and keep on going |
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2469 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:12:33:05: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). |
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2470 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:13:33:16: <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: Ss, no? <-- since it doesn't actually occur at the start of words it would probably always be all caps, so SS as ais523 says |
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2471 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:42:15: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2472 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:42:40: <ais523> hi elliott |
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2473 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:44:04: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2474 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:45:54: <ais523> Vorpal: the GPU renders the cursor, AFAIK |
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2475 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:46:07: <ais523> the reason I think this is that I've seen GPU crashes that render nothing on the system working /but/ the mouse cursor |
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2476 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:46:27: <elliott> ais523: That's a bit modern-day for Vorpal's question. |
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2477 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:56:46: <ais523> bleh, my zoom-in-and-see-the-individual-pixels window manager trick doesn't work on the cursor |
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2478 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:58:06: <Vorpal> ais523, a screen magnifier? Or something else? |
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2479 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:58:25: <ais523> Vorpal: it's one of the compiz features |
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2480 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:58:32: <ais523> most of them, I'm not even sure if they have an intended use |
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2481 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:58:36: <ais523> they were just added because they could |
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2482 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:58:53: <ais523> e.g. I can make a window black-and-white using super-shift-mousewheel |
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2483 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:59:04: <ais523> which is nice on occasion, if something's too brightly colored |
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2484 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:59:34: <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, what happened to the cursor when you used that trick? |
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2485 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:59:41: <ais523> it just kept moving around as normal |
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2486 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:59:48: <ais523> oh, you mean zooming in? |
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2487 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:59:51: <ais523> it stayed the same size |
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2488 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:15:59:59: <ais523> and moving it changed the point the screen was zoomed around |
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2489 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:01:46: <ais523> fizzie: that's actually in the default set when you ask for high effects |
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2490 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:02:47: <ais523> Vorpal: there's a bit of a timelag on pixels further from the mouse |
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2491 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:02:53: <ais523> so it looks like the window's slightly elastic |
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2492 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:03:31: <ais523> Vorpal: it looks nicer than the window staying rigid |
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2493 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:03:44: <ais523> but yes, there's no real need for it |
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2494 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:03:46: <ais523> to me it does |
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2495 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:16:03:57: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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2496 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:17:26:02: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2497 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:17:32:26: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2498 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:17:32:52: <ais523> hi |
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2499 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:19:24:36: <ais523> use Gregor's neural network? |
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2500 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:19:25:55: <elliott> ais523: No. |
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2501 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:19:41:42: <ais523> is there even any point? |
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2502 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:19:46:39: <elliott> ais523: ? |
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2503 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:22:18:26: <ais523> fizzie: someone tried to run it and complained that it didn't work |
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2504 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:22:18:28: <ais523> `file canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2505 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:22:18:38: <ais523> `cat canary |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2506 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:22:19:29: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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2507 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-21.txt:22:21:30: <nortti> it makes Phantom_Hoover and ais523 quit |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2508 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:12:41:07: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2509 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:12:42:21: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2510 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:12:42:45: <ais523> hi elliott |
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2511 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:14:23:36: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). |
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2512 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:15:55:20: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2513 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:15:56:12: <ais523> yay, teaching over for the academic year |
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2514 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:15:56:17: <ais523> not counting potential marks entry or exam marking |
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2515 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:00:08: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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2516 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:00:12: <ais523> hi elliott |
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2517 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:02:32: <ais523> real men made their computer out of transistors, and have their boot code hardcoded from memory |
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2518 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:05:06: <ais523> is spit n-type or p-type? |
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2519 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:05:15: <ais523> it's mostly made of water and protein, right? |
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2520 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:05:43: <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, real men spit arsenic and boron. |
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2521 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:09:05: <ais523> the problem is that such discussions collapse into self-parody too quickly |
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2522 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:09:13: <ais523> and are indistinguishable from it even if they aren't meant to be |
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2523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:10:20: <ais523> yes |
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2524 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:36:07: <elliott> ais523: Hey, should I add <ref> and <math>? |
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2525 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:36:24: <ais523> elliott: depends on if you think anyone would use them |
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2526 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:36:35: <ais523> also, why not zzo38's custom mathy thing? |
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2527 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:42:10: <elliott> ais523: Because zzo38's custom mathy thing (a) needs heavy modifications to be usable on anybody else's computer by his own admission, (b) obviously doesn't support standard LaTeX syntax, and (c) has no MediaWiki extension, he wants me to write the extension for him to use it. |
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2528 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:45:14: <elliott> ais523: I think <ref> would be useful, since there are quite a few articles with citations done in a rather ad-hoc style (mostly the theoretical CS stuff). |
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2529 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:16:45:39: <ais523> perhaps |
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2530 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:17:23:51: <ais523> so what are these esocolor things? |
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2531 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:17:24:58: <elliott> ais523: We're painting fizzie's house. |
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2532 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:17:25:09: <ais523> not sure I believe that |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2533 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:17:25:40: <ais523> elliott: does anyone /really/ believe the world is piecewise-linear? |
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2534 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:17:26:57: <elliott> ais523: Like, God, man. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2535 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:17:49:46: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
2536 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:06:02: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2537 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:12:40: <elliott> hi ais523 |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2538 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:12:49: <ais523> ` |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2539 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:13:15: <olsner> `? ais523 |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2540 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:13:18: <HackEgo> ais523 is ais523. This topic may retroactively become more informative if or when Feather is invented. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2541 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:13:30: <ais523> gah, HackEgo has ruined our convention |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2542 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:13:35: <ais523> which shows how long ago we last tried to use it… |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2543 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:14:00: <ais523> come to think of it, "not found" is not really a sensible error message for trying to exec the null string |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2544 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:42:10: -!- ais523_ has joined #esoteric. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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|
2545 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:45:24: -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2546 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:19:55:03: -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2547 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:21:57:26: <ais523> btw, that gzip file that got mangled by phpBB? the person sent me the original, it was a standard gzip file after all |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2548 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:21:58:04: <ais523> it had a lot of NULs after the first three bytes, which presumably phpBB deleted, which is why we couldn't parse it from that |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2549 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:21:59:31: <ais523> the zeros came very early |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2550 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:21:59:34: <ais523> so they'd have shifted all the bytes from then on out of place |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2551 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:22:05:51: <ais523> oh, mtime was indeed 0, in that case |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2552 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:22:39:34: <ais523> wow, advert I just saw: "3 easy steps: 1. Click to download. 2. Run the .exe file to install. 3. Enjoy the fun content!" together with a large Download button, five stars, the company name, some version compatibility information, and a large tick for some reason |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2553 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:22:39:42: <ais523> no indication on what the product actually was… |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2554 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:22:39:54: <ais523> what are the odds it /isn't/ malware? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2555 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:23:01:44: <ais523> Sgeo: are you an idiot now? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2556 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:23:01:52: <Sgeo> ais523, I'd like to think not. |
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2557 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-22.txt:23:48:08: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2558 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:25:44: -!- ais523 has joined #esoteric. |
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2559 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:27:19: <elliott> ais523: Speaking of, I might sit down and spec out Johny sometime. |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2560 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:28:03: <ais523> elliott: heh, have you found a language that the name fits yet? |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2561 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:28:16: <ais523> oerjan: does INTERCAL count? that's not quite the same thing |
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<elliott> run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste
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2562 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:28:38: <elliott> ais523: Well, no. But I figure a language that doesn't fit the name is just as good. |
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2563 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:31:20: <ais523> early mechanical typewriters didn't even have 0 or 1 keys, you were meant to use O and I |
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2564 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:31:59: <ais523> elliott: a reddit comment explained the invention of the backslash a while back |
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2565 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:32:10: <ais523> apparently, it was to make it possible to type /\ and \/ |
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2566 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:32:47: <elliott> ais523: ISTR that too |
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2567 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:33:37: <ais523> ion: yes |
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2568 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:34:57: <elliott> ais523: kick ion |
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2569 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:35:23: <ais523> ion: don't spell elliott's name, he doesn't like it and there's no excuse given the existence of tab-complete |
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2570 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:35:38: <ais523> (although, I find it hard to spell elliott any other way even when it's correct, having known this elliott so long) |
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2571 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:35:53: <Mathnerd314> ais523: what about elly? |
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2572 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:36:07: <ais523> Mathnerd314: that's not a common abbreviation for "elliott" |
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2573 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:36:09: <elliott> ion: ais523 was preceded by 522 ais'. |
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2574 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:36:26: <ais523> it is a moderately common name, but it's short for something else |
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2575 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:36:28: <ais523> I forget what offhand |
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2576 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:36:50: <Mathnerd314> ais523: my point was it makes tab-complete difficult |
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2577 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:37:38: <ais523> ah, I didn't notice she was in /here/ |
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2578 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:37:43: <ais523> (I know her from another channel) |
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2579 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:38:18: <Mathnerd314> ais523: and which channel would that be, or is it classified? |
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2580 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:38:44: <ais523> Mathnerd314: ##crawl-dev |
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2581 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:39:46: <elliott> ion: You won't get along with ais523, then! |
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2582 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:39:59: <ais523> I /want/ to like Crawl, but can't |
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2583 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:40:07: <ais523> every now and then I start playing it again, and remember why I don't like it |
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2584 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:40:45: <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: devs are taking it in the wrong direction |
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2585 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:40:56: <elliott> Well, also what ais523 has told me. |
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2586 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:41:07: <ais523> there seems to be some sort of crusade against tactics |
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2587 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:41:16: <ais523> and the game tends to tend in the direction of obfuscating complexity |
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2588 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:41:25: <ais523> security through obscurity makes no sense in a roguelike… |
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2589 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:43:28: <ais523> oerjan: interesting fact: while I have written several MiniMAX interps, I have never dared to run any of them |
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2590 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:43:35: <ais523> also, does class="plain" on the table work? |
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2591 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:43:39: <elliott> ais523: No. |
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2592 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:48:59: <oerjan> ais523: nice synchronicity - it was your MiniMax table that convinced me that something like plainpres was needed :) |
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2593 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:49:19: <ais523> oerjan: I saw you editing MiniMAX, and being unsure why you were doing so |
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2594 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:49:21: <ais523> have you figured it out yet? |
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2595 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:49:31: <ais523> (I was commenting on MiniMAX /because/ you were editing it) |
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2596 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:50:27: <oerjan> ais523: i just thought i should add a proper table, after doing so for the TC proof |
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2597 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:50:45: <ais523> why you were editing it |
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2598 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:50:50: <oerjan> ais523: also i hit the latter by pressing random |
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2599 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:20:51:14: <elliott> ais523: he was unsure why he started his formatting because it's a lot of work, presumably |
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2600 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-23.txt:21:57:22: -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). |
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2601 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-24.txt:12:32:58: <elliott> @tell ais523 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4471 |
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2602 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-24.txt:14:52:33: <elliott> @tell ais523 Stop appearing where I least expect you! |
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2603 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-24.txt:17:48:45: <elliott> `run grep ais523 /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2012-03-??.txt | paste |